Jehovah's Witness History - by Walter Martin
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NWL
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You claimed that Jesus as deity was speaking though, now you're claiming his humanity died, so you've contradicted yourself.
Did the "first and the last" who is the Alpha and Omega and almighty God die RD?
NWL
Active member
"Jehovah" is not the "name of God". "Jehovah" is a Latin-bastardization of the Hebrew consonants yod-hey-vav-hey with the vowels from adonay sandwiched between the consonants.
Of course, back in 1870, Charles Taze Russel was totally ignorant of the original languages of Hebrew and Greek. It's obvious that there was zero divine inspiration involved in forming the "Watchtower Society".
This is God's name, and the pronunciation is unknown because all vowels were removed from the word.
This exact phrase is quoted three times, in Joel, in Acts, and in Romans where it is more specific. The SUBJECT of Romans 10:9-13 is JESUS CHRIST - he is the one to "call upon".
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Yes, you don't believe Jehovah is the proper pronunciation, I don't deny Yahweh is a better suited name over Jehovah and I never have. But the fact that Yahweh is a better translation of the tetragrammaton doesn't seem to stop you from using the pronunciation "Jesus" in favour of Yeshua.
Please tell me, why do you use the name "Jesus" in favour of "Yeshua"?
Moving on, if Romans 10:13 is in regards to Jesus then tell me this, why does the writer of Isaiah 28:16 separate Jehovah who lays down Jesus as the cornerstone to Israel, with Jesus himslf in Isaiah 28:16. Jesus was that cornerstone in Romans 10:11, thus he cannot be the Jehovah in v13 who lays him down as that cornerstone. Why does the writer seperate them if they are the same person?
If you took the time to actually answer the question instead of posting the same refuted argument over and over you actually might see that what I'm saying is not wrong.
NWL
Active member
NWL said:
No, when I said the above I meant that the Bibles teachings have plain truths that's exactly what I meant. Take 1 Cor 8:6 for example, "there is actually to us one God, the Father", this is a plain truth, there is one God who is the Father. The bible speaks for itself, but others choose to twist scripture and say that even though the bible sates there is one almighty God who is the Father, that almighty God isn't limited to the Father. JW's teach the plain truths of the bible without the need to twist, or further define such texts.
I have found that most people who bring this question up scarcely use Gods name in worship in the first places, defeating the argument in the first place, since, if you don't even see Gods name as something precious why do you care as to how certain people pronounce it in the first place. I hope you aren't one of those people.
The pronunciation of the tetragrammaton has been lost, however, the tranlistration of "Yahweh" is a better than the translation "Jehovah". The only reasons Jw's favour "Jehovah" from the use "Yahweh" is because the use "Jehovah" is more widely known today. JW's are not overly dogmatic, if for example we started using the name "Yeshua" over "Jesus" many thousands upon thousands of people, not within the organisation, would become confused even though the use of "Yeshua" is a better pronunciation of the name "Jesus", the name above every name. Why don't JW's use the name "Yeshua", because "Jesus" is more widely known than "Yeshua". Likewise the term "Jehovah" is more widely known than "Yahweh", thus JW's as a whole choose to use that name over "Yahweh", since the real pronunciation has been lost not choosing the term "Yahweh" over "Jehovah" isn't forsaken the proper pronunciation of Gods holy name.
The teaching that 1975 would be the "end" was not taught by the organisation as a whole but was more of a rumour within the organisation. They made many points that 1975 marks the end of 6,000 years of human experience from Adam, they stated that 1975 could be the time God brings destruction but never stated it would be. Many people within the organisation, not seeing the warning given by leaders, such as "don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975", got too excited at the prospect that 1975 was the end and did things such as you stated. But as said, JW's leaders did NOT teach 1975 would be the end of the world.
You must also remember just because someone is spirit guided does not mean they are infallible (When I say this it's not me implying JW's taught 1975 was the end for me to say they're not infallible), the apostles, who had earlier received holy spirit (john 20:22) and after being taught about the Kingdom for 40 days by Jesus thought the kingdom of God was going to be restored in their day, Acts 1:6 "So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”.
Greetings again NWL,
The topics that were discussed with SoC and then KR also joined in were:
Topic 1: The return of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven
Topic 2: When and where will Jesus sit upon the Throne of David
Topic 3: Jesus will subdue and convert Israel and the nations at his return and then reign over them.
Topic 4: JW Teaching Environment, Literature and The New World Translation
Topic 5: Who is the King of the North?
Topic 6: The return of the Jews to the Land of Israel
Part of the discussion in Topic 1 was the resurrection of the human body of Jesus and this could have been given a separate topic, as it is an important subject.
I am not asking you to answer any of the matter, and if you are satisfied with what SoC and KR wrote, then the matter stands as very little progress was made, with the result that it was a statement of two different perspectives on most of the above topics.
Kind regards
Trevor
I appreciate your answer and I agree with you on 1 Corinthians 8:6. Recently I started a thread on “Jehovah Witness teaching compared with the Bible” and SoC and KR participated. I am not sure if you were active on this forum when it ran, but it started on May 4th 17 and last post was May 14th 17. With this fast moving forum it could be on page 5 or 6. I do not want to refresh that thread as it ran its course and I learned some aspects of JW teaching, but still maintain a different view on most things that were discussed.
The topics that were discussed with SoC and then KR also joined in were:
Topic 1: The return of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven
Topic 2: When and where will Jesus sit upon the Throne of David
Topic 3: Jesus will subdue and convert Israel and the nations at his return and then reign over them.
Topic 4: JW Teaching Environment, Literature and The New World Translation
Topic 5: Who is the King of the North?
Topic 6: The return of the Jews to the Land of Israel
Part of the discussion in Topic 1 was the resurrection of the human body of Jesus and this could have been given a separate topic, as it is an important subject.
I am not asking you to answer any of the matter, and if you are satisfied with what SoC and KR wrote, then the matter stands as very little progress was made, with the result that it was a statement of two different perspectives on most of the above topics.
Our meeting mainly reads from the KJV, and some readers will read “LORD” while others including myself will read Yahweh. When we encounter hymns with "Jehovah" we usually sing "Yahweh", despite the difficulty of one less syllable. I also think it is more important to understand the meaning of the Yahweh Name and how it is fulfilled in Jesus. We understand Exodus 3:14 should be translated "I will be". I appreciate your answers in the rest of your Post.
Kind regards
Trevor
NWL
Active member
As someone who typically has no reasoning ability, all you do is make unwarranted claims and revert back to attacking the messenger instead of the message.
If you're unable to answer the questions I pose all you need to do is say so, or even better just don't reply back to my post, at least that what you save yourself some face.
Right Divider
Body part
NWL
Active member
And this is where the Jesus God Man argument falls apart.
You're the one who turns it on and off, if I were to quote John 14:28 where Jesus states the Father is greater than he is, or Mark 13:32 where Jesus doesn't know the day or the hour, you would have no issue in saying "the reason why Jesus said that was because he was speaking in regards his humanity". You have no issue in explaining a text that puts Jesus lower than God as speaking "as a Human", if I were to ask was Jesus speaking as deity there your answer would be a resounding no, as it was when I asked you equivalent questions.
However, when we get to a text where you believe its Jesus speaking as deity, you change your rule. Suddenly even though he's speaking as deity it doesn't mean he can say statements, in our case, that his deity died, that would contradict your claim that it was his deity speaking. You use no such classification with Rev 1:17 that you would typically impose on scriptures such as John 14:28 or Mark 13:32 . You thus contradict your own rule!
In Rev 1:17 where it has Jesus as deity speaking, but the statements he makes refer to his humanity, what prevents me from saying that statement found when Jesus speaks as man are in fact in reference to his deity. What rule can I use to work out when its referring to Jesus humanity or deity since you completely threw the only rule you had out the window when scripture stated "the first and the last became dead".
You can't have it both ways, either Jesus humanity speaks, saying statements relating to his humanity and other times Jesus as deity speaks, with those statements relating to his deity or none happen. Again, Rev 1:17 doesn't say "Jesus" died, it states Jesus as "the first and the last died", is it possible or proper that the Alpha and Omega states he died?
Right Divider
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NWL
Active member
What prevents me from saying that statement found when Jesus speaks as man are in fact in reference to his deity. What rule can I use to work out when its referring to Jesus humanity or deity since you completely threw the only rule you had out the window when scripture stated "the first and the last became dead"?
In short how do we know when its referring to Jesus deity and his humanity, is it simply when scripture does't agree with you?
Right Divider
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NWL
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Please don't act like I don't understand what you've told me. If you like I can asked you how its possible for God to die again and I can have you tell me again that "Jesus humanity died". YOU are the one who made the initial separation, I'm merely approaching this according to your answers, the reason why you're probably having a hard time accepting my approach is because they're based off your faulty reasoning. Hence my initial objection the the God man argument.
If the humanity part of Jesus was that which died, on what scriptural basis do we decide if other scripture such as John 14:28 or Mark 13:32 is referring to Jesus humanity or his deity since the separation has been made by YOU elsewhere.
Right Divider
Body part
ONE person; TWO natures. It's just that simple
I guess that you're going to have to get saved so that the Holy Spirit can give you the help that you need.
John 14:28 is related to Jesus humbling himself to come to earth as a man.
Phil 2:5-11 (KJV)
(2:5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (2:6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (2:7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (2:8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (2:9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (2:10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; (2:11) And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Notice the reference that Paul makes to Isaiah 45:23!
Isa 45:22-23 (KJV)
(45:22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. (45:23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
This is Paul CLEARLY and UNAMBIGUOUSLY calling Jesus GOD!
Nobody is "in the form of God" but GOD!
NWL
Active member
I guess I'll just have to ask you again then.
How is it possible for the person of Jesus to die. Please don't say his humanity died, since you've made it clear you cannot separate Jesus two natures.
The "form" Jesus existed in related to bodily form, not nature, Jesus existed in the same form as God as in he had the same type of body. God's bodily form is a Spirit (John 4:24), thus Jesus also also as a spirit.
The Greek word used for "form" is "morphē" which means form, shape, outward appearance. The context is explicitly clear that the "form of God" related to the type of body God had, namely a spirit body, because of the surrounding context. Notice the context, "who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man"
Thus Jesus existing in God form meant Jesus existed as a spirit, since God is a spirit. The verse has nothing to do with Jesus being God nor does the meaning of Greek word "morphē" express anything other than the outward appearance of something.
As the scriptures states, Jesus was in the form of God, this is because Jesus is a copy of what God is as Hebrews 1:3 states.
Moreover Isaiah 45:22-23 isn't applicable to Jesus. again You're missing the context of Phil 2 that actually relates to Isaiah 45:22-23. Phil 2:11 states "and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father". As you can see every knee bends to Jesus, not to worship or glorify him but rather his Father. This is fitting since Jesus himself acknowledged "no one comes to the Father expect through" him, since it was the Father who ordained that people bend the knee to Jesus as can be seen in Hebrews 1:5, which parallels Phil 2:8-9, thus all glory doesn't go to Jesus but the Father.
Thus Isa 45:22-23 isn't being fulfilled when the knee bends to Jesus, but rather, when Jesus passes that glory to the Father in v11, the only person whom we should worship (john 4:24).
Right Divider
Body part
Your unbelief has you really confused and I'm just about done with your babbling.
I did NOT say "that you cannot separate Jesus' two natures".
I said that there is ONE PERSON with TWO NATURES.
You cannot SEPARATE the ONE PERSON from His TWO NATURES.
Nonsense. There is ONLY one being that is in the form of God and that is God.
I understand that your rejection of truth is the root of your problem.
NWL
Active member
If Jesus is one person with two natures, and those two natures cannot be seperated from the one person, then how can you say his human part died if they cannot be separated from the person Jesus, the God man?
Does the "morphé" in Phil 2:6, when looking at the original languages, mean outward appearance or nature of a person?
Right Divider
Body part
He died in His humanity, not His person-hood.
Your unbelief has you totally locked down.
Apparently you do not understand human language. Words are NOT always used in a wooden literal way.
The LORD Jesus Christ created ALL things (not all OTHER things as your perverted cult teaches).
Col 1:12-17 (KJV)
(1:12) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: (1:13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: (1:14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins: (1:15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (1:16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (1:17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Remain in your unbelief if you want. That's your choice.
NWL
Active member
So Jesus humanity was dead for three days, but the deity part of him lived on? So the person of Jesus was without his humanity for three days right?
So what your saying is that even though the greek word "morphe" means "outward appearance" that it doesn't mean "outward appearance" but you say it doesn't mean "outward appearance" and what it really means is whatever you claim it means. Niceeeee! Good reasoning.
I take the bible for what it says, you're the one not understanding human language RD since your claiming words don't mean what they actually mean.
Wow, so instead of trying to show me how my reasoning is wrong you just throw another scripture in to try and prove I'm incorrect, the scripture you cited even relate to the subject we were talking about. If I were you I'd stay away from googling argument against JW's, they're all the same washed out reasoning we deal with all the time that are easily refuted.
Scripture makes it clear that the Father is the creator of all things showing Jesus as the intermediate agent whom the Father created things through. The writer of Collisions uses the Greek word "dia" (through/by), which can have both a causal [by] and intermediate [through] meanings. How do we know it has an intermediary meaning when it comes to Christ in Col 1:16, because the writer uses Greek passive word forms, such as "ektisqh", showing that Christ did not create but that things were created through him by another. It is for this reason most modern translations, not like the one you decided to use, state that things were created through Jesus in Col 1:16.
As stated, scripture clearly states that the Father was the one who created things through Jesus, this is undeniable and requires one to completely disregard scripture if they disagree.
Speaking of the Father and his son:
(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "..Long ago God...Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.."
(1 Cor 8:6) "..yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.."
I won't go into why the word "other" was inserted into the NWT since you don't even grasp the basics yet.