drbrumley
Well-known member
Obviously
Jehovah Witness Teaching compared with The Bible
- Thread starter TrevorL
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Obviously
KingdomRose
New member
Contrarily, the scriptures that you quote above from the KJV actually show the bias of the King's committee. The men of the committee were trinitarians and translated to conform to that view. The incorrectness of their view in many parts of their version is reasoned upon by many scholars, including Westcott & Hort from whom the NWT comes.
(1)First of all, why would any fault be found with the rendering of Genesis 3:1? (Subtle, cautious,:idunno: what's the problem?)
(2)John 1:1 is rendered in different ways, and not just by the NWT. Centuries ago there were documents that showed the same scholarship as what is found at John 1:1 in the NWT. Here is a link to the Coptic Versions: http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com/2008/09/translating-word-was-god-1700-years-ago.html
The Emphatic Diaglott of 1891 by Benjamin Wilson translates John 1:1 as "and a god was the word." It is good, proper, Greek-to-English translation.
The James Moffatt translation renders it "and the Word was divine." "Divine" doesn't mean "God." It means somebody directly from or of God...the angels also being such. Again, just proper translation from the Greek to English.
(3)Revelation 5:9,10 which is rendered "they are to rule as kings over the earth," is not unique to the NWT. It is known that the word from which "over" is translated can mean "on" or "over." Either one. So the NWT is not wrong. Other versions have rendered that word as "over" as well. One version is the Holy Trinity Edition of the Catholic Bible (1951), which renders it as:
"And hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign over the earth."
So, there is actually NO evidence of "JW bias" anywhere in those scriptures. I have shown that there was this "bias" as you call it, in versions far pre-dating the NWT and even the KJV in the case of John 1:1, and evidence of similar translation in works other than the NWT in the case of Revelation 5:10. There is no real substantive evidence that the KJV is "more correct," in any of these examples.
KingdomRose
New member
No big deal, though some people delight in taking what SEEMS to be a serious flaw of Russell and distort the truth out of all resemblance to what actually occurred. Charles Russell never claimed to know Greek. He didn't lie. The NWT is derived from the work of Westcott & Hort, who are respected by scholars throughout the world.
Yes he did claim to know Greek.
KingdomRose
New member
I haven't read Caleb's reply to that, but I'm sure that he and I AND SoJ will agree. We do not know yet. We can tell only by looking BACK on what has already happened. The King of the North has changed over the centuries. I think it was even Germany at one point. For the longest time now it has been a puzzle. After the Berlin Wall fell and "glasnost" became the thing in Russia, for awhile everyone thought it might be China. Now it looks like Russia again. We won't be able to say for sure until the end.
Slanderous.
As you have provided no proof for you allegation.
KingdomRose
New member
No he didn't.
He did, and it's in the trial transcript.
Greetings again SonOfCaleb and Greetings KingdomRose,
As far as Trinitarian bias in the KJV, would you also note that in the same Post #5 I suggested that the KJV has a Trinitarian bias, even in the very place where the Name YHWH is revealed. I quoted Tyndale’s translation as being more accurate, showing that the Trinitarian claim that Exodus 3:14 is connected with John 8:58 is on very shaky ground. Has any one responded to Tyndale's translation of Exodus 3:14?
I felt some satisfaction that the margin gives a translation possibly closer to the meaning, but the Publishing Committee was possibly reticent to replace an inaccurate or biased translation that everyone was used to. On the track that the cow made over a hill and round a corner they built a main road.
My available time is short, and as you seem to have attempted to clean up this thread in one go, with many posts, there is much for me to respond to. But this will need to suffice for now.
Kind regards
Trevor
It is good to hear that private study is encouraged. Nevertheless I gain a hint from the above that the situation is fairly closely controlled and that there is not free and open discussion, even on matters that we use the term “uncertain detail”. We have in our fellowship what I would term the ebb and flow of people and ideas. We do not reinvent the wheel, but many apply themselves to personal study and give good expositional material. My main interests have been Galatians and Isaiah, but what I now understand has been formed by personal study, but more by sound exposition by those who have given excellent studies over the years, both spoken and written, but none of this has come from a central authority in our fellowship.
I accept that it is a sincere contribution to add to the many translations that are now available.
Welcome to this thread KingdomRose. I could see that you have been busy with the “Jesus is YHWH” thread, 118 replies and your own two “Jesus is not YHWH” threads, one locked at 304 replies and the second now at 169 replies. In the “Jesus is YHWH” thread I contributed to Post #5, quoting Psalm 110:1 and the exposition of this verse by Peter in Acts 2:34-36 showing to me at least that Jesus is not YHWH, but he is both Lord and Christ, the Son of God, seated at the right hand of God the Father. As I have not read the 581 replies to this subject, and seeing that we are almost on the same side of the fence in that subject, could you please tell me what reply in one of the three threads adequately confirms or denies what I stated in my Post #5?
As far as Trinitarian bias in the KJV, would you also note that in the same Post #5 I suggested that the KJV has a Trinitarian bias, even in the very place where the Name YHWH is revealed. I quoted Tyndale’s translation as being more accurate, showing that the Trinitarian claim that Exodus 3:14 is connected with John 8:58 is on very shaky ground. Has any one responded to Tyndale's translation of Exodus 3:14?
No real problem, but have you checked a proper Bible word dictionary as to the meaning of the word in the Hebrew? Have you checked how this possible biased translation is used in “Let God be True”? What came first, the NWT or the view presented in Let God be True? Or is this now buried in history. I am the librarian for our meeting and I can sometimes trace in our literature going back to 1832 any slight changes and opinions.
I felt some satisfaction that the margin gives a translation possibly closer to the meaning, but the Publishing Committee was possibly reticent to replace an inaccurate or biased translation that everyone was used to. On the track that the cow made over a hill and round a corner they built a main road.
On another forum there is a thread running on this subject and by April 29th 17 it has reached 778 responses. I will let you read that thread if you like, but I have not read even one post. Benjamin Wilson was a CoGoAF, not a JW, but the JWs published his book. I imagine that a JW at one time looked at the interlinear portion of his translation and helped to fix the usual JW view of this verse. But again I was to some extent pleased that an alternative is now given in the NWT 2013 margin. I disagree with both the NWT rendition and the alternative in the NWT margin. I agree with Benjamin Wilson’s translation which is found, not in the interlinear portion, but on the right hand column of the 1942 JW edition page 312: “and the LOGOS was God”.
My available time is short, and as you seem to have attempted to clean up this thread in one go, with many posts, there is much for me to respond to. But this will need to suffice for now.
Kind regards
Trevor
Do we have an infiltration of JWs here now?
SonOfCaleb
Active member
Yeah the boards been thoroughly subverted by all two of us....We come in pairs usually...
SonOfCaleb
Active member
Excellent post. I didn't have time to go into detail as have been somewhat busy hence my brevity.
Greetings again SonOfCaleb and KingdomRose,
Topic 4: JW Teaching Environment, Literature and The New World Translation (cont’d).
I usually see and speak briefly to a JW each week when I go shopping. I have mainly listened to her account of her involvement with the JWs without discussing different views. On the last occasion she had difficulty when she knocked on a door and was abused verbally and she still conveyed some of the feeling of her bad experience. Then she said that JWs must be right because we are the only ones persecuted, and then she mentioned the situation in Russia as proof. This reminds me of Elijah saying that he alone was left. I briefly mentioned that we have had difficulties in some our mission areas.
On the previous occasion I asked if they had had their annual meeting around the time of the Jewish Passover. She said yes, and I think she called it the “Memorial”. Possibly SoC and KR could confirm this, but I understand that the JWs only remember the bread and the wine once a year, and even then most of the members do not partake. Only the few who claim to be amongst the 144,000 partake and I do not know how many are in each meeting.
I find this extremely strange and different to our circumstance. We fellowship and partake of the bread and wine each week, seeing the need to remember the death and resurrection of our Lord. On any occasion that I have missed this through sickness or otherwise, I feel a sense of loss. Even though we renew every day, this is the central focus of our week, a central focus of our fellowship.
Kind regards
Trevor
Nice to see you both patting each other on the back. “In the mouth of two witnesses ..” may not necessarily establish the truth of this matter, especially when SoC ignores my post and yet to see if KR answers. Possibly to clarify, the reason why I stated that Benjamin Wilson was a CoGoAF is that he was not a Trinitarian, but he did not see the need to fiddle with the translation of John 1:1 in the way that JWs have done, and one way is that they misquote Benjamin Wilson. Also it is interesting that in the interlinear portion of the purple NWT 1969 (I do not have a more recent edition) the situation is reversed, as it has “and god was the Word” in the interlinear portion dropping the "a" of "a god" in the Diaglott, and yet in the translation “the Word was a god” still appears, possibly because of previous editions of the NWT. They then have a couple of pages in the appendix to justify their translation.
Topic 4: JW Teaching Environment, Literature and The New World Translation (cont’d).
I usually see and speak briefly to a JW each week when I go shopping. I have mainly listened to her account of her involvement with the JWs without discussing different views. On the last occasion she had difficulty when she knocked on a door and was abused verbally and she still conveyed some of the feeling of her bad experience. Then she said that JWs must be right because we are the only ones persecuted, and then she mentioned the situation in Russia as proof. This reminds me of Elijah saying that he alone was left. I briefly mentioned that we have had difficulties in some our mission areas.
On the previous occasion I asked if they had had their annual meeting around the time of the Jewish Passover. She said yes, and I think she called it the “Memorial”. Possibly SoC and KR could confirm this, but I understand that the JWs only remember the bread and the wine once a year, and even then most of the members do not partake. Only the few who claim to be amongst the 144,000 partake and I do not know how many are in each meeting.
I find this extremely strange and different to our circumstance. We fellowship and partake of the bread and wine each week, seeing the need to remember the death and resurrection of our Lord. On any occasion that I have missed this through sickness or otherwise, I feel a sense of loss. Even though we renew every day, this is the central focus of our week, a central focus of our fellowship.
Kind regards
Trevor
Greetings again SonOfCaleb and KingdomRose,
I had a brief review of the Posts that I have not answered. Most of them are by KR. I will be selective and brief, but if you would like me to answer more fully please ask.
Kind regards
Trevor
I had a brief review of the Posts that I have not answered. Most of them are by KR. I will be selective and brief, but if you would like me to answer more fully please ask.
They saw him ascend visibly. I discussed this with SoC fairly thoroughly. Your answer avoids the simple and clear teaching of Acts 1:11 and Acts 3:19-21. I do not accept the JW concept of a physical body as I believe in the resurrection of Jesus in his body, which was then changed into an immortal BODY, not an ethereal spirit. I would also be interested in how you understand Zechariah 14:4.
I believe it is Russia. I have a different understanding of the KoTS in Daniel 11:40, as he was in the south in 1917 pushing at Turkey.
Prophecy is also given for us to anticipate some aspects of what will happen. The outworking will be much greater than our anticipation, as evidenced by prophecy fulfilled at the first coming, eg Micah 5:2, Isaiah 53:1-12.
I apologise, but as the 144,000 in your estimation will be greater than John the Baptist I guessed. Perhaps you call the 144,000 “little flock” and those on earth “other sheep”.
I think Jesus is saying that all in the Kingdom will be greater than John the Baptist was during his mortal lifetime. He will be in the Kingdom of heaven.
It is of heaven, not in heaven.
Kind regards
Trevor
SonOfCaleb
Active member
You're not a mind reader so id prefer if you didn't make these incorrect assumptions. Truth is obviously 'subjective' hence why we're discussing the matter as we have different positions doctrinally. If i want to commend KR for a post its my perogative to do so on the matter. Whether that sits well with you is not relavent. But do not make the wrong assumption that i do so merely to score points. I am not on this board to score points with anyone. If i was i wouldn't even bother to answer your posts. Regardless i have answered your questions to the best of my ability. So im not sure what questions you claim i've ignored.
The witnesses have been somewhat of a bell weather for most global religions in respect of religious freedoms especially Christianity. No religion outside of the Witnesses has experienced more direct persecution than us. The recent events in Russia are very worrying as the RF has banned the Witnesses country wide and criminally appropriated our property. This is the first 'legal' ban of its kind. In fact the KoTN has had a history of persecuting the witnesses starting with Nazi Germany who put our brothers and sisters in concentration camps. Many were executed. Russia did the same under Stalin sending many to Sibera and executing Witnesses indiscriminately. This has been going on for over 100 years now. This year marking the anniversary of the persection of the Witnesses in Russia which started with the Russian revolution. There have certainly been other religions such as Catholicism in Russia which suffered immensely under persecution by the Atheist Russian government and the Russian Orthodox Church. Hundreds of Catholic priests were killed in atheist pogroms during WW1 in Russia. That said the targetted persistence of persecution of the Witnesses has been consistent the world over from Eritrea to China, or Russia to the United States (during WW1 & 2).
Correct we celebrate the 'Memorial' of Jesus Christ death yearly which falls on the week of the Jewish passover which we call the 'Memorial'. The Memorial as instituted by Jesus effectively supercedes the 'passover' that was once celebrated by the Jews of antiquity.
As already mentioned only the annointed EG members of the 144,000 part take of the emblems the bread and wine. The rest of us 'The Great Crowd' are just observers. The memorial is our most attended event yearly and runs into 10's of millions of observers. Last year memorial had over 20m attendee's world wide.
Paul exhorted us at Hebrews 10:24 "24 And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near." This is one if not the primary reason for our fellowship at our congregrations. To enhance our faith and love for Jehovah.
Greetings again SonOfCaleb
I am not a Greek scholar so I should not try to dictate on John 1:1. But I could suggest that the NWT Greek scholars most probably altered their Interlinear portion to agree with a correct understanding of the Greek, but could not prevail upon the Editorial Committee to alter the NWT because too much water had flown under the bridge. But this is only a guess based on the evidence as I see it. My only attempt at Greek was attending with about 40 others a series, led by a Greek scholar. I gave up after about 6 weeks due to mainly family commitments, but benefited in now being able to use some reference books more easily. One question that was raised though, was whether the NWT “The Word was a god” was an acceptable translation, and he stated: “No”. I am sure you could find other scholars in support of the NWT, despite the NWT Interlinear portion.
Kind regards
Trevor
I need to apologise for reacting quickly and in that manner. I thought I had responded correctly to KR’s comment regarding Benjamin Wilson’s Interlinear portion of the Diaglott. He claimed “It is good, proper, Greek-to-English Translation” and I assumed that he was stating this with respect to John 1:1. Rather than responding to my comment you simply endorsed KR’s post. But I should be more patient, and recognize that more or less we will not resolve any differences, but simply be stating our differences.
I am not a Greek scholar so I should not try to dictate on John 1:1. But I could suggest that the NWT Greek scholars most probably altered their Interlinear portion to agree with a correct understanding of the Greek, but could not prevail upon the Editorial Committee to alter the NWT because too much water had flown under the bridge. But this is only a guess based on the evidence as I see it. My only attempt at Greek was attending with about 40 others a series, led by a Greek scholar. I gave up after about 6 weeks due to mainly family commitments, but benefited in now being able to use some reference books more easily. One question that was raised though, was whether the NWT “The Word was a god” was an acceptable translation, and he stated: “No”. I am sure you could find other scholars in support of the NWT, despite the NWT Interlinear portion.
This could be true, but as I mentioned to my friend that we have had some trouble. Possibly there is some difference because of numbers and another major difference is that we keep a very low profile in some of these totalitarian counties. I am conscious of some of this because some of our members from our meeting are very much involved in mission work, traveling overseas, and one is now in permanent residence in a difficult region, in part caring for refugees from religious persecution.
I am not sure if you are quoting Hebrews 10:24 with respect to the annual day. We would apply this to our weekly Memorial, and partly to Sunday School, Sunday evening discussion group, Wednesday Bible class and other activities as they are arranged. I have only met one JW, of whom it was said by others, that he was among the 144,000. He took the year 1975 off work, but returned in 1976 when he ran out of money. I did not converse with him, but met him in company with SoJ. He impressed me as being very quiet and reserved. My friend has also mentioned another Australia-wide annual gathering in September, and she attended a larger version of this two years ago, possibly Asia-Pacific occurring every ten years.
Kind regards
Trevor
There is no comparison. JW's don't teach the Bible.
Greetings Bright Raven,
Kind regards
Trevor
I agree with you in part, and I hope that some of the differences mentioned already will help to compare JW teachings with the Bible. When I first mentioned to SoC that I had a different perspective on many issues concerning Bible teaching than that held by the JWs, I had in mind a number of other differences. But I have been reticent to discuss some of these as they are views held also by most Protestants, possibly including yourself. I will give one example, I believe that the sacrifice of Christ was representative and not as a substitute. On the other hand I hold some views in common with JWs, views that most Protestants do not share. Two examples are that most Protestants believe in the immortal soul, and that they go to heaven when they die, while I believe only in the resurrection when Christ returns. My aim was avoid too many side discussions, and I am reasonably happy with the various topics and Scripture that have been mentioned. My brief reply to you is that I believe that many Protestants do not teach the truth of the Apostolic Gospel, but a mixture of truth and error.
Kind regards
Trevor
Unless something significant comes up on this thread, then this will most probably be my last post here. I hope I have not been too critical of the JWs, but I have tried to compare them with what I consider the Bible teaches. I imagine if anyone wanted to closely examine my fellowship, then they could find much to criticise. Jesus warns against finding fault, trying to find the speck in someone else’s eye, when we have a beam in our own eye. This is very true on a personal level, as I am conscious of severe failures.
Ultimately it is Jesus that is the judge, it is he that walks in the midst of the seven lampstands. The seven lampstands in John’s day had been influenced strongly by the Apostles. In some respects Ephesus had become the centre, with Paul spending two years, then Timothy and it appears later John himself had ministered. Thus Ephesus had been a true lampstand, with the light of the gospel radiating out for all to hear and respond. They had defended the gospel from those that would subvert, with wrong ideas possibly from sources such as false Judaism and Greek philosophy. Jesus commended them for their first works, but they had now lost their initial dedication and first love for the things centred in Christ. Jesus warns them to repent otherwise this very centre of Gentile Christianity would have their lampstand removed. Domitian had depicted the exploits of his older brother on the Arch of Titus, symbolically showing the Lampstand removed from corrupt Jerusalem and Judaism. Taking up this concept, the Ephesians and the other Lampstands in their area started to slide into the developing Corrupt Catholic Church. They too would no longer represent the light of the gospel radiating from their fellowship. They might continue to have all the outward show, but the light of the true gospel would no longer be present.
This is also a very personal message, where each of us need to find true fellowship with Christ and the Apostles, continually renewing by identifying with Jesus Christ in his crucifixion, death and resurrection, living by faith in Christ Galatians 2:20.
Kind regards
Trevor
Ultimately it is Jesus that is the judge, it is he that walks in the midst of the seven lampstands. The seven lampstands in John’s day had been influenced strongly by the Apostles. In some respects Ephesus had become the centre, with Paul spending two years, then Timothy and it appears later John himself had ministered. Thus Ephesus had been a true lampstand, with the light of the gospel radiating out for all to hear and respond. They had defended the gospel from those that would subvert, with wrong ideas possibly from sources such as false Judaism and Greek philosophy. Jesus commended them for their first works, but they had now lost their initial dedication and first love for the things centred in Christ. Jesus warns them to repent otherwise this very centre of Gentile Christianity would have their lampstand removed. Domitian had depicted the exploits of his older brother on the Arch of Titus, symbolically showing the Lampstand removed from corrupt Jerusalem and Judaism. Taking up this concept, the Ephesians and the other Lampstands in their area started to slide into the developing Corrupt Catholic Church. They too would no longer represent the light of the gospel radiating from their fellowship. They might continue to have all the outward show, but the light of the true gospel would no longer be present.
This is also a very personal message, where each of us need to find true fellowship with Christ and the Apostles, continually renewing by identifying with Jesus Christ in his crucifixion, death and resurrection, living by faith in Christ Galatians 2:20.
Kind regards
Trevor