Jason Troyer and Jo Scott Expose the Contradiction Between DNA and the Book of Mormon

[Jefferson]

Jason Troyer and Jo Scott Expose the Contradiction Between DNA and the Book of Mormon

Thursday August 31st, 2006. This is show #174.

Summary:

* The rarely discussed issue of how DNA has shown the Book of Mormon to be in err.

Hurricane Katrina = God's judment?

Apathy over abortion in the Mormon capital of the world, Salt Lake City, Utah.

The arrest of Warren Jeffs and the widespread frequency of polygamy among Mormons.

Today's Resource: Find out the extraordinary and little-known Bible story of Whatever Happened to The Tree
of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? You'll a-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y LOVE IT (or your money back)!

 

[Mustard Seed]

The lie.

The lie.

Jason Troyer and Jo Scott Expose the Contradiction Between DNA and the Book of Mormon

Thursday August 31st, 2006. This is show #174.

Summary:

* The rarely discussed issue of how DNA has shown the Book of Mormon to be in err.

Hurricane Katrina = God's judment?

Apathy over abortion in the Mormon capital of the world, Salt Lake City, Utah.

The arrest of Warren Jeffs and the widespread frequency of polygamy among Mormons.

Today's Resource: Find out the extraordinary and little-known Bible story of Whatever Happened to The Tree
of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? You'll a-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y LOVE IT (or your money back)!

DNA has proven no such thing. This is a lie perpetuated on and centered around the general public's naivity touching all things 'DNA'. DNA has proven no such thing one way or the other. Here's my more indepth addressing of this issue in the past--

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1044670&postcount=154

 

[Mustard Seed]

Here's the original post I made that's quoted by myself on the dna issue.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1036866&highlight=Lehi's+ancestry#post1036866

 

[Mustard Seed]

forget the links here's the post--

I've read the Book of Mormon, and some of the Doctrines and Covenants and a little of Pearl at Great Price. I was under the impression that the Native Americans were supposed to be descended from the Jews that came here mentioned in Nephi. Of course I don't claim to be a Mormon scholar by any means and would be the first to tell you I could have something mixed up :chuckle:

Lehi's ancestry, the only one that claims direct lines to Israel in the Book of Mormon, is clearly delineated to be of the tribe of Manasseh, brother to Ephraim, son of Joseph (of Egypt). Aside from that we are not privy to the specific ancestry of any other lines connecting the New World Inhabitants to the Old World.

This is where alot of the specifics on the DNA are not fleshed out by those wanting to 'prove' our faith implausible or impossible in it's historic claims. The kinds of DNA used in the study, because of cost restraints, in time and money (at the current capacity of DNA research) only follow strictly patriarchal or matriarcal lines. That is that they can only tell you who are the father of the father of the father of the father (going back virtualy as many generation as you like--within reason of the actual extent of relevant ancestry) OR they can tell you the who the mother of the mother of the mother etc. (again going back in the same way as along the father's lines) of a person.


I'm going to try to see if I can contrive some crude example to possibly explain this better.

\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
_\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
__\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
___\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
____\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
_____\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
______\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
_______\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
________\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
_________\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
__________\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
___________\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
____________\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
_____________\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
______________\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
_______________\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
________________\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
_________________\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
__________________\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
___________________\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
____________________\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
_____________________\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
______________________\/\/\/\/\/\/
_______________________\/\/\/\/\/
________________________\/\/\/\/
_________________________\/\/\/
__________________________\/\/
___________________________\/
____________________________I


Now when you read this please be aware that I fully understand that this simple traingular diagram does not accurately show the exponential growth, and eventual narrowing (to Noah, wife and sons and wives and then to Adam OR any narrowing to common ancestry that would occure at some point) one would see on a true diagram of geneology. This is more to demonstrate an idea than it is to produce super accurate graphing of possible geneolocial scenarios. So we'll have to do with just geometric growth being represented. This isn't too great a problem as the items we will be primarily discussing are easily represented by areas rather than actual quantities.

First realize that if we suppose that you are the "I" at the bottom. Realize that you have genetic information, in some form or another, that's come to you from ALL those above you (remember that this graph is not showing the actual size of your ancestry as the graph would get exponentialy larger for a time. So you have all that genetic information that, if you could easily get a map of your whole genome (at least the portion that differentiates man from animal) you might have an idea of what commonalities you share with all those people (and people all over the world). But the process used in these Book of Mormon claims, as I mentioned before, can only follow the outer most edges. That is that it can only tell you who you are related to IF those people fall along either the far right side OR the far left side of the chart. So you could have an ancestor, or two, or three or more, who enters into the fray at the top of the chart and who, through common ancestry cross overs or whatever become(s) a(some) substantialy represented in your DNA YET because the ancestor(s) never cross(es) over into the direct lines on either side would NEVER register on any of the kind of DNA tests that have been given in these studies.

This is only a part and only one possible explanation for the results that were received.

It's important to remember with the above that the Book of Mormon never says that there weren't others here, neither does it delineate (because one of the several groups mentioned in the book are explicitly placed as having NOT kept a history of their travels, nor interactions with others, on their journey to this hemisphere. In fact there are a few places early on that hint that there were others already here in the Americas when Lehi and his family got here.

May I ask you another?

I read in Martha Beck's book that a museam in 1967 (or it might have been 1968) found the papyris that Joseph Smith used to translate Pearl at Great Price. After the Mormon scholars verified it was the actual papyris, Egyptologist translated the documents. They concluded that it was not what Joseph Smith translated, but a bunch of Egyptian funeral documents. whats the LDS stance on this?

(This is not an official LDS Church position) There's a few things to consider. First off academic translations are not infallable and are often shown to be rather incorrect at later points. Next thing is that Joseph openly did not claim to have translated the whole of the papyrii he had available. So while they do share some of the included illustrations, to assume that the illustrations had to be connected to the surrounding, surviving, text is quite a jump. There was at least one other complete book that was not translated and who knows what was in that?

also,

If you have noticed, I have a thread on here about Freemasonry. I belong to the Freemasons. Both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young also belonged to this fraternity, so how do you feel about our organiztion?

thanks,

---travel

Haven't seen the thread. I'll take a look later. Freemasonry is essentialy the remnants of the ancient writes of the Temple in Jerusalem. The name Knights Templar seems to make an obvious verbal connection to the Temple. If I remember correctly the early brethren of the Church essentialy saw it as a remnant that survived through the ages without it's current members realizing it's divine origins, and, as they only have a remnant, they can see but a little of what richness was orignialy there. Though I'd wager that you likely see a great deal of powerfull symbolism yourself there.

I'm fairly certain there's no ill will towards Freemasonry in general. As should be the case we are encouraged to judge someone by how they live with regard to their beliefs and practices rather than strictly by their claimed beliefs or affiliations.

 

[Mustard Seed]

Listening to the linked show is rather funny. Those filling in for bob admit that they haven't heard the response then they claim that the only response that's been given is, and I quote--"la la la la la".

I want to call these people out. Will they come on TOL and defend their assertions and the implicit and explicit derogatory comments? I'll confront them head on. Give me a Battle Royal on this!

 

[Carpaint]

:dizzy: :help: :sam: :luigi: :greedy:

 

[Mustard Seed]

:dizzy: :help: :sam: :luigi: :greedy:

speaks volumes

 

[Jefferson]

I want to call these people out.

Call the show. Mon-Fri from 5 pm to 5:30 pm ET and again from 6 pm to 6:30 pm ET at 1-800-8Enyart.

 

[Alma Allred]

Jason Troyer and Jo Scott Expose the Contradiction Between DNA and the Book of Mormon

I agree with mustard seed that the only thing exposed on this program was the hosts' ignorance. There was so much misinformation in this self serving piece. They claimed that the "Mormons" have elected the mayor of SLC. Mormons are a minority in Salt Lake City and that's why the mayor has been a Democrat and a non-Mormon for years.

Jason and Jo kept claiming that Mormons are running away from science and can't face the issue. A couple of months ago, Hugh Hewitt had Willilam Lobdel, a reporter from the LA Times who made the same claim. A few days later, John Butler and and Dan Peterson, two LDS Ph.D.s, were on Hewitt's show and explained why Lobdell's claims were bogus.

The Troyer/Scott show was little more than a misinformed hatchet job.

Alma

 

[Toast]

I'm just gonna quote one line from that website of scientists at: http://www.mormonchallenge.com/dnachal.htm

"No indication of Hebrew ancestry has been found in the DNA of Native Americans."

You mormons believe in a false gospel perpetuated by men (aka Joseph Smith) and not Jesus Christ. Your adding to the word of God.

And thus you are made to look foolish, because you believe in things which men made up, and are not true.

 

[Alma Allred]

I'm just gonna quote one line from that website of scientists at: http://www.mormonchallenge.com/dnachal.htm

"No indication of Hebrew ancestry has been found in the DNA of Native Americans."

Why should Mormons, or anyone, expect to find "Hebrew" DNA among Native Americans? I would be surprised if anyone had a "Hebrew" scientific sample for comparison purposes. I'd then be surprised if that sample did correspond to Native American samples since the Book of Mormon only claims at the most 30 people having come from Hebrew genetic stock. A trace of Hebrew DNA among among the thousands and possibly millions of others whose genetic make up is unknown and unspecified by the Book of Mormon make
the claim of "No indication of Hebrew ancestry" little more than nonsense.

You mormons believe in a false gospel perpetuated by men (aka Joseph Smith) and not Jesus Christ. You're adding to the word of God.

I haven't added to the word of God. I believe God has through Joseph Smith and other prophets (which is how it's done), but the claim if a "false gospel" is yet to be demonstrated.

And thus you are made to look foolish, because you believe in things which men made up, and are not true.

And you know this how?

Alma

 

[Toast]

So tell me if this statement is true or not. I'm quoting from that website again.

"The title page of The Book of Mormon claims that it was "written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel." The introduction page of The Book of Mormon goes on to say that "After thousands of years, all were destroyed, except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."

 

[Toast]

I haven't added to the word of God. I believe God has through Joseph Smith and other prophets (which is how it's done), but the claim if a "false gospel" is yet to be demonstrated.
Alma

But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8 NASB).

This kinda sounds like what Joseph Smith claimed. i.e. An angel named Moroni came down to him and delivered to him a new yet unrevealed truth (already sounds like a cult), and that you agree with the parts of The Bible that sit well with your view, and cut out the rest.

 

[Alma Allred]

But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8 NASB).

Then it seems it should be easy to demonstrate something from the Book of Mormon that is contrary to that which was preached by the apostles. You're just assuming that it's contrary - or "unrevealed" in your words.

This kinda sounds like what Joseph Smith claimed. i.e. An angel named Moroni came down to him and delivered to him a new yet unrevealed truth (already sounds like a cult), and that you agree with the parts of The Bible that sit well with your view, and cut out the rest.

Well, perhaps you could demonstrate the parts of the Bible that Mormons have cut out? John saw the visit of Moroni and described it in Revelation 14:6: "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people."

Alma

 

[Nineveh]

Why should Mormons, or anyone, expect to find "Hebrew" DNA among Native Americans?

Because that is the claim.

An interesting tidbit of info if you like...

A group from Africa made a similar claim to Jewish roots...

"The first striking thing about the Y chromosomes of the Lemba is that you find this particular chromosomal type (Cohen modal haplotype) that is characteristic of the Jewish priesthood in a frequency that is similar to what you see in major Jewish populations. Something just under one out of every 10 Lemba that we looked at had this particular Y chromosomal type that appears to be a signature of Jewish ancestry. Perhaps even more striking is the fact that this Cohen genetic signature is strongly associated with a particular clan in the Lemba. Most of the Cohen modal haplotypes that we observe are carried by individuals of the Buba clan which, in Lemba oral tradition, had a leadership role in bringing the Lemba out of Israel."

Not only that but ... "This Bantu-speaking group claimed Jewish ancestry and observed many Semitic traditions such as kosher-like dietary restrictions and slaughter practices, male circumcision rites, strict rules against intermarriage, and Semitic-sounding clan names."

Neither seems to be true of Native Americans.

cite

 

[Mustard Seed]

I'm just gonna quote one line from that website of scientists at: http://www.mormonchallenge.com/dnachal.htm

"No indication of Hebrew ancestry has been found in the DNA of Native Americans."

You mormons believe in a false gospel perpetuated by men (aka Joseph Smith) and not Jesus Christ. Your adding to the word of God.

And thus you are made to look foolish, because you believe in things which men made up, and are not true.

Look at my explanation of the DNA evidence they use. See the post with the upside down triangle thing. Imagine that's your ancestry. Now the DNA they tested for in those tests ONLY discerns the two outer edges of the ancestral makeup. I've compared it to proclaiming that a red delicious apple is red through and through simply because that's the color on the exterior.

 

[Mustard Seed]

Because that is the claim.

An interesting tidbit of info if you like...

A group from Africa made a similar claim to Jewish roots...

"The first striking thing about the Y chromosomes of the Lemba is that you find this particular chromosomal type (Cohen modal haplotype) that is characteristic of the Jewish priesthood in a frequency that is similar to what you see in major Jewish populations. Something just under one out of every 10 Lemba that we looked at had this particular Y chromosomal type that appears to be a signature of Jewish ancestry. Perhaps even more striking is the fact that this Cohen genetic signature is strongly associated with a particular clan in the Lemba. Most of the Cohen modal haplotypes that we observe are carried by individuals of the Buba clan which, in Lemba oral tradition, had a leadership role in bringing the Lemba out of Israel."

Not only that but ... "This Bantu-speaking group claimed Jewish ancestry and observed many Semitic traditions such as kosher-like dietary restrictions and slaughter practices, male circumcision rites, strict rules against intermarriage, and Semitic-sounding clan names."

Neither seems to be true of Native Americans.

cite

Again people, the evidence they've presented doesn't touch on the bulk of DNA material and only determines two lines, out of hundreds. These accounts in africa make sense since they are tied to strictly patriarchal tradition. Father to son to son to son to son to son ad infinitum. The tests can only tell you a small small portion of their ancestry.

 

[Nineveh]

Again people, the evidence they've presented doesn't touch on the bulk of DNA material and only determines two lines, out of hundreds. These accounts in africa make sense since they are tied to strictly patriarchal tradition. Father to son to son to son to son to son ad infinitum. The tests can only tell you a small small portion of their ancestry.

So what happened to Native Americans that everything is so vastly different between these two groups?

 

[Toast]

Alma, it doesnt need to be stated that Mormons have a different set of beliefs that often disagree or contradict what The Bible states. Thats why you guys have those 3 other books besides The Bible: pearl of great price, doctrines and covenants, and book of mormon. But here are some contradictions if you are interested:



You believe in multiple Gods, and in fact, you believe that you have the ability to become a God if you follow Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith made this clear in The King Follett Discourse:

I am going to inquire after God: for I want you all to know him and be familiar with him ... I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show you what kind of a being God is. God was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens ... I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in a form like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form of a man.

I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see.

It is the first principle of the gospel to know for certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ did.

Here then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you (Joseph Smith Jr., King Follett Discourse, pp. 8-10).


Other statements by Smith and Young reveal further the Mormon concept of God:

In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create and populate the world and people it (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, 6:5).

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's (Joseph Smith, Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22)

Lorenzo Snow repeated Joseph Smith's words about the Mormon idea of God,

As Man is, God was, As God, is, Man may become. (Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse, p. 9, note by Lorenzo Smith).


As for the Christian doctrine of God:

We believe in one God, Jesus Christ, and that there is no other name under Heaven which men can be saved by but through Him. But you believe that salvation comes under the name Joseph Smith. "No salvation without accepting Joseph Smith ... If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth... then this knowledge is of the most vital importance to the entire world. No man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he can not enter the Kingdom of God" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, pp. 189-190).

In Mormonism Jesus is not the unique Son of God:

His humanity is to be recognized as real and ordinary -whatever happened to Him may happen to any one of us. The Divinity of Jesus and the Divinity of all other noble and stately souls, in so far as they, too, have been influenced by a spark of Deity -can be recognized as manifestations of the Divine (Elder B. H. Roberts citing Sir Oliver Lodge in Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse, p. 11 note).

So you elevate the status of man, above or equal to that of the status of God.

Note that your scriptures also contradict themselves, in that elsewhere you state there is only 1 God.

nd Zeezrom said unto him: 'Thou sayest that there is a true and living God?' And Amulek said: 'Yea, there is a true and living God.' Now Zeezrom said: 'Is there more than one God?' And he answered, 'No!' (Alma 11:26-29) See also Alma 11:21, 22; 2 Nephi 11:7; 2 Nephi 31:21; 3 Nephi 11:27, 36; Mosiah 15:1-5, Mosiah 16:15.


As for which parts of The Bible Mormons cut out. You cut out the passages under the guise:

The Mormon articles of faith read, "We believe the Bible to be the Word of God in so far as it is translated correctly. . * " (Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Article 8). The Book of Mormon claims that a correct translation of the Bible is impossible since the Catholic Church has taken away from the word of God ". . . many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. And all this have they taken away. And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord" (I Nephi 13:26b, 27).

Orson Pratt, an early apostle of the Mormon Church, put it this way, "Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original?" (Orson Pratt's Works, 1891, p. 218).

So again, you discredit the true Word of God, to elevate the word of man, the book of mormon.

 

[Mustard Seed]

So what happened to Native Americans that everything is so vastly different between these two groups?

Centuries of apostacy, mass fratricide, potential influence of asian immigrants--look at how much things like the Babylonian captivity changed the Jews throw in several like experiences combined with an issolation from the western world and potential mingling with other cultures possibly of asian decent. It's remarkable the change that can be effected in a century or two exand that and have the people utterly seperated from their land of origin.