Isaiah 53 is about ISRAEL

[Elia]

No I have no proof for you

Bs"d

Then why should anybody take Paul, a self-admitted liar, serious?



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[beloved57]

Bs"d

Then why should anybody take Paul, a self-admitted liar, serious?



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

You reject Pauls words, then you reject Gods Words, no difference.

 

[Elia]

You reject Pauls words, then you reject Gods Words, no difference.

Bs"d

Since you cannot bring any proof or even arguments for that statement, that statement is on the same level as: "When you reject the Quran you reject the word of God".

It is both unfounded ranting.



"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[beloved57]

Bs"d

Since you cannot bring any proof or even arguments for that statement, that statement is on the same level as: "When you reject the Quran you reject the word of God".

It is both unfounded ranting.



"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

You have seen the proof that I have, Rom 9:8 and you reject it ! God has withheld Faith from you, so there's no proof for you, just Judgment and condemnation !

 

[Elia]

You have seen the proof that I have, Rom 9:8 and you reject it ! God has withheld Faith from you, so there's no proof for you, just Judgment and condemnation !

Bs"d

So you say: "The NT is true, because that is what is written in the NT!"

Well, the same argument holds true for the Quran.

But God has withheld faith in the Quran from you, and therefore you are going to burn in the Muslim hell.

But of course, if you were born in an Arab country, you would be defending the Quran.

You don't go by proof and sound reasoning, you go by what the majority in you surroundings believe.

And that of course, will not lead you to the truth.

For that you have to use your brain.

That's why God gave it to you.



"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[beloved57]

Bs"d

So you say: "The NT is true, because that is what is written in the NT!"

Well, the same argument holds true for the Quran.

But God has withheld faith in the Quran from you, and therefore you are going to burn in the Muslim hell.

But of course, if you were born in an Arab country, you would be defending the Quran.

You don't go by proof and sound reasoning, you go by what the majority in you surroundings believe.

And that of course, will not lead you to the truth.

For that you have to use your brain.

That's why God gave it to you.



"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

The NT is God's Word which you don't believe, nor do you believe the OT! The physical descendants Israel of Abraham are not the Children of God Rom 9:8 !

 

[Elia]

The NT is God's Word which you don't believe, nor do you believe the OT! The physical descendants Israel of Abraham are not the Children of God Rom 9:8 !

Bs"d

It's just that you cannot give any proof for it, just like you cannot give any proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah, just like you cannot give one positive proof that your messiah actually was the messiah.

It's all, just like the Islam and the Quran, based on nothing.


"Serve Y-H-W-H!

And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[beloved57]

Bs"d

It's just that you cannot give any proof for it, just like you cannot give any proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah, just like you cannot give one positive proof that your messiah actually was the messiah.

It's all, just like the Islam and the Quran, based on nothing.


"Serve Y-H-W-H!

And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

The proof is the scripture I provided Rom 9:8, you cant believe it !

 

[Elia]

The proof is the scripture I provided Rom 9:8, you cant believe it !

Bs"d

I guess that if you cannot count to two then you might also think that circular reasoning constitutes proof.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[beloved57]

Bs"d

I guess that if you cannot count to two then you might also think that circular reasoning constitutes proof.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

There is no other proof to give you ! You reject the scripture you reject God and His Truth ! See you at the Judgment!

 

[Interplanner]

Bs"d

I guess that if you cannot count to two then you might also think that circular reasoning constitutes proof.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

It is important here to understand the point of Acts 13's sermon. This sermon was in a synagogue and is Paul speaking without any pressing issue or circumstance. This is the official, sample sermon.

1, the promises to Israel were actually to Christ. That's the reason for quoting Isaiah on that.
2, the resurrection of Christ is the proof of the 1st. Justification from the debt of sins was what was promised and being proved. It is proved by God's raising Christ from death, as the quotes from the Psalms show. This is repeated again at the end of Romans 4. "He was crucified for our sins." That means our sins were why he was sacrificed. Then, "He was raised because of our justification." That means, justification had been secured by his efforts, so God raised him.

Those things are what the apostles said were the reasons he was proclaimed as Christ. It is very possible that other people have other expectations as to what Christ was supposed to be; Jesus said so in Matthew 24. But the above material is what Dan 9 and Is 53 and Ps 22-24 were about as taught to the apostles by Christ after the resurrection until Pentecost.

If you have other expectations, then of course you are going to say he was not the Christ.

 

[Elia]

It is important here to understand the point of Acts 13's sermon. This sermon was in a synagogue and is Paul speaking without any pressing issue or circumstance. This is the official, sample sermon.

1, the promises to Israel were actually to Christ. That's the reason for quoting Isaiah on that.
2, the resurrection of Christ is the proof of the 1st. Justification from the debt of sins was what was promised and being proved. It is proved by God's raising Christ from death, as the quotes from the Psalms show. This is repeated again at the end of Romans 4. "He was crucified for our sins." That means our sins were why he was sacrificed. Then, "He was raised because of our justification." That means, justification had been secured by his efforts, so God raised him.

Those things are what the apostles said were the reasons he was proclaimed as Christ. It is very possible that other people have other expectations as to what Christ was supposed to be; Jesus said so in Matthew 24. But the above material is what Dan 9 and Is 53 and Ps 22-24 were about as taught to the apostles by Christ after the resurrection until Pentecost.

If you have other expectations, then of course you are going to say he was not the Christ.

Bs"d

He was not the Christ because he did NOT fulfil the messianic prophecies.

He could not have been the Christ because he was not in male line a descendant of David.

He was not the Christ because he never has been anointed by a priest to be the messiah.

For the finer details look HERE.


"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[Elia]

Bs"d

If anybody wants to know what is going on in Isaiah 53, then look here: Isaiah 53



"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[Elia]

It is very possible that other people have other expectations as to what Christ was supposed to be; Jesus said so in Matthew 24. But the above material is what Dan 9 and Is 53 and Ps 22-24 were about as taught to the apostles by Christ after the resurrection until Pentecost.

If you have other expectations, then of course you are going to say he was not the Christ.

Bs"d

Daniel 9, Isaiah 53, en Psalm 22 are all NOT about the messiah. Some speak about A messiah, Daniel 9 speaks about two messiahs, but not of these texts speak about THE messiah.

For the finer details look here:

Daniel 9

Isaiah 53

Psalm 22

 

[intojoy]

When do we get healing from the Jews gettin persecuted then?

 

[beameup]

When do we get healing from the Jews gettin persecuted then?

Let us "recap" Isaiah 53 according to Eliah and Neo-Judaism:
1) It pleased God to punish Israel
2) Israel made his soul an offering for sin
3) Israel shall see the travail of his soul
4) Israel shall justify many
5) Israel shall bear their iniquities
6) Israel has poured out his soul unto death
7) Israel has born the sins of many

 

[Elia]

When do we get healing from the Jews gettin persecuted then?

Bs"d

You don't get healing from the Jews being persecuted, the Jews get healing from the Jews being persecuted.

Everybody suffers for his own sins, and through the suffering the sin is erased.

 

[Elia]

I'm afraid you have already told us who the "real messiah" is, as you base it upon Isaiah 53.
1) Jew's are being punished by God

Bs"d

Yep, happens all the time. We see that all over the Tanach.

2) Jewish souls are being made an offering for sin

Exactly. With this distinction that everybody suffers for his or her own sin.

3) Jewish souls see travail

All the time.

4) Jew's are "justifying many"

Jews are justifying themselves by suffering for their own sins, and through the suffering the sin is erased.

5) Jew's are "baring other's iniquities"

Wrong. Jews (and non-Jews) bare their own iniquities.

6) Jewish souls is being poured out unto death

Happens all the time.

7) Jew's are bearing the sins of many

Many Jews (the nation of Israel) bare the sins of many Jews. (the nation of Israel)

Israel is being punished for the sins of Israel.

That is what is going on in Isaiah 53.

For the finer details look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com

 

[Elia]

It is important here to understand the point of Acts 13's sermon. This sermon was in a synagogue and is Paul speaking without any pressing issue or circumstance. This is the official, sample sermon.

1, the promises to Israel were actually to Christ.

Bs"d

Wrong. The promises to Israel were to Israel.

2, the resurrection of Christ is the proof of the 1st.

Why do you think that he was resurrected?

Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.

Oh, but he appeared to his disciples. Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. He met them, but they didn't recognize him.

The same thing happens in John 20:14; "At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, ... "
She thought he was the gardener....

John 21:4 "Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, ..."

And again they didn't recognize him.

Isn't it strange that they didn't recognize the person with whom they were so close for years?

But the NT gives the answer to that strange phenomena. Look in Mark 16:12-13 "Afterward Jesus appeared IN A DIFFERENT FORM to two of them while they were walking in the country."
So it was a person "in a different form" from the previous well known person who appeared to them, that's why they didn't recognize him.

A person in different form from the old Christ, who was not recognized by the people he interacted with for years, only days before, doesn't that sounds like an impostor who is pretending to be the resurrected messiah?

That also explains why some of the disciples doubted when the "resurrected messiah" appeared to them: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." Matt 28:17.

Can you imagine that the authentic messiah appears to you and you still doubt?
Apparently he was not so authentic.

If the disciples, who saw the "resurrected Christ" with their own eyes, still doubted, why then do the Christians 2000 years later, who have nothing to go by but stories, don't doubt?

 

[beameup]

Bs"d

Wrong. The promises to Israel were to Israel.



Why do you think that he was resurrected?

Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.

Oh, but he appeared to his disciples. Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. He met them, but they didn't recognize him.

It is clear from the text that they were prevented from recognizing him.
When he "broke the matzah", there eyes were opened.
BTW, the grave cloths were still "intact" in the tomb, which means he "passed through" the material.
The resurrected body is hyperdimensional and not limited to the present space-time environment.