Is Universalism Biblical? PastorKevin&Silk Queen discuss

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PKevman

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Silk Queen and I have agreed to discuss the topic of Universalism in a One on One discussion. Silk Queen has said that she just wants to know the truth about Universalism and whether or not it is Biblical. I have found her in the past to be open to changing a view if it is not found to be a Biblical view. This is very good.

We have also agreed with each other before hand that all things discussed herein would be just OUR words and discussing the Scriptures themselves. No copy and paste jobs from other individuals or groups of individuals or their teachings. It is sort of an "Off the cuff" discussion on the topic of Universalism.

We have also agreed up front that we will number our questions in a formal debate style (Ex: PKQ1, SQA-PKQ1) solely for the purpose of referencing one another's questions and answers.

I have made it clear up front and would like to state again that my goal and desire in doing this is to win Silk Queen away from Universalism as I believe it is false teaching and dangerous false teaching. She knows this and has still agreed to the discussion, which says volumes for her openness I believe. She stated she only wants to know the truth!

SQ and I do not want the thinking of people to interfere with this discussion, so we are not suggesting a discussion thread be started up about this One on One as it is NOT a debate as much as it is a discussion between two people who love God and love His Word. There are plenty of places to debate and discuss Universalism elsewhere on this site (such as the Battle Talk thread for BR XII which has continued as a discussion for over 9 months now!)

God bless you Silk Queen and anyone reading this as well.
 

PKevman

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SQ, a preliminary question just so I know where you stand:

PKQ1: What form of Universalism do you hold to? Would it be considered Christian Universalism or Unitarian?
 

Silk Queen

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I am a Christian universalist, My belief God is love, not saying he don't hate our actions but God will correct us, Not necessarily now in this life but in the great white throne judgment.
I believe the Great white throne judgement is for this purpose for correction and it will be very painful.
I feel I am being judged now so if I hold on I won't have to face this Great White throne judgement.
 

PKevman

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Ok, I thought you were a Christian Universalist, but I just wanted to make sure.

A few questions from your first response:

PKQ2: Why do you feel you are being judged now, and what form is that judgment taking? By if you hold on now, do you mean being among those who persevere?

PKQ3: What do you believe is the specific judgment that God will enact at the Great White Throne Judgment? What do you do with all of the verses that indicate this judgment is eternal and not temporary?

Sin:

PKQ4: SQ-Could you please tell me what you think the consequences of sin are? Thanks!
 
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Silk Queen

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"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS; WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim. 2:3-6). "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we MUST be saved" (Acts 4:12).
 

Silk Queen

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Ok, I thought you were a Christian Universalist, but I just wanted to make sure.

A few questions from your first response:

PKQ2: Why do you feel you are being judged now, and what form is that judgment taking? By if you hold on now, do you mean being among those who persevere?

PKQ3: What do you believe is the specific judgment that God will enact at the Great White Throne Judgment? What do you do with all of the verses that indicate this judgment is eternal and not temporary?

Sin:

PKQ4: SQ-Could you please tell me what you think the consequences of sin are? Thanks!
We are all being judged now sometimes we have many obstacles put in front of us and it is a matter of preservance.

I believe God raises those at the Great white throne judgement to judge them I don't see why he would raise those up just to let them die all over again.
There will be no one that will not be agreeable to God at this time.
I believe the great white throne is for purification.

Isaiah 45:21:25
I believe these scriptures apply to all of us not just Israel.
On Eternal it is possible this could be annihalation but it seems it wouldn't be to hard for God to save all.
So my belief Eternal is a translated word.
I apologise if I don't have questions in order yet but will try and be more organized tomorrow.
 

PKevman

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"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS; WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim. 2:3-6). "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we MUST be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Ok let's talk about those two passages: I want to note I am quoting from the New King James as it is a more modern translation and put into our current language. This is important because people today don't talk now like they did 400 years ago in England. So what they would have said at the time when they translated a text may or may not be how WE would translate that today, and thus the meaning can sometimes get lost. I will also examine the verses you quoted in a few other dependable translations, as well as a very important Greek word that is at the heart of that text. I believe it is critical that we don't misquote a verse or pull it out of context.

A verse by verse look at the passage:

1 Timothy 2:1-7

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,

Paul is saying that prayer should be made for all men! We should pray for ALL men why? He shows in verse #2:

2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.

So he is saying to pray for all men, for kings, and all who are in authority that we may lead a quiet and peacable life in all godliness and reverence. :think:

Many people don't pray for their government and those who are in authority over them, and they ignore the Apostle's clear instruction.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

Here is the verse that I believe Universalists get wrong, and why they always START with this verse when they quote this passage. I know you didn't do it intentionally, but I have seen it done by Universalists and in Universalist literature over and over again. Correct me if I am wrong, but they are asserting that the part that says "For THIS is good and acceptable" is talking about what Paul says in verse #4, as if to say this is good and acceptable that God will have all men be saved. But that isn't what the verses say SQ. If you look at it in context, one thing that we have to keep in mind is that the Greek did NOT have the commas and periods that we see in our translations today. So to assume that Paul is continuing in verse 4 what he said in verse 3 is a faulty assumption.

Let me break down for you what I believe the Apostle is saying:

If you put verses 1-3 together he says:
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior

What is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior? That we lead quiet and peacable lives in all Godliness and reverence. (And that we pray for all men in light of this goal)

So if you consider it this way, it is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior for us to lead quiet and peacable lives. Why? Because our living quiet and peacable lives will help lead men to the Gospel! That is why Paul says:

4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Do you see that? The better translation put in our venacular today is that God DESIRES all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. A few other translations of these verses will bear this out:

I am not normally a big fan of the NIV, but it is spot on with translating this verse:

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

New American Standard:

1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


The NLT renders it thus:

1 I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them. 2 Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.

Now the Amplified Bible is not always the most reliable translation at times either, but in this instance they have done a good job of getting the sense of the Greek.

1FIRST OF all, then, I admonish and urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be offered on behalf of all men,
2For kings and all who are in positions of authority or high responsibility, that [outwardly] we may pass a quiet and undisturbed life [and inwardly] a peaceable one in all godliness and reverence and seriousness in every way.
3For such [praying] is good and right, and [it is] pleasing and acceptable to God our Savior,
4Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth.

In their interpretation they say "Such praying" is good and right, and THAT is what is pleasing and acceptable to God. I have no problem with this view either. It falls right in line with the rest of the text.

Further, the word "Will" in this text is the Greek word Thelo which has as its meaning to will, to wish, to want, to desire. So all of the translations that say that God wants, God desires, God wishes all men to be saved are right. That is what God wants. He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Now if the Universalist could prove that man cannot and does not violate the will or the desires of God, then they might have a point. However, when we read the Bible, what do we see?

PKQ5: When we read the Bible, by and large, do we see men ALWAYS doing what God wants them to do? When you look around you at the world today, do you think that men are doing what God wants them to do?

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

There is no other way to be made right with God except through the Lord Jesus Christ. That is what this verse is saying. Christ is our mediator. We cannot approach God without Christ because we are wicked and sinful beings. When we trust in the Lord Jesus, He becomes our Mediator, our Advocate with the Father! Praise the Lord!

6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all men. But this does not say that all men will be saved. His sacrifice is sufficient for ALL men who WILL come to Him. This is made clear in other sections of Scripture. John 3:16-18 for example:

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son

Condemnation is an important term and one that needs to be understood. He who believes is not condemned, but he who does NOT believe stands condemned already because he has not believed!

7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Paul was appointed a preacher and an apostle by God and given a specific and unique ministry: to carry the Gospel to the Gentiles. God revealed to Paul what had been a great hidden Musterion (mystery) (see Ephesians 3) and that great mystery was that God had now taken away His special favoritism towards the nation of Israel and had made salvation equally open to all men. Before this, if a man wanted to be saved, he had to become a proselyte Jew. Paul repeatedly declares that God's salvation is now open to all men, and Paul was appointed to be an apostle to the Gentiles.

I will end this post for the sake of length and address your next Scripture in a follow up post.

God bless!
 
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PKevman

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We are all being judged now sometimes we have many obstacles put in front of us and it is a matter of preservance.

I believe God raises those at the Great white throne judgement to judge them I don't see why he would raise those up just to let them die all over again.
There will be no one that will not be agreeable to God at this time.
I believe the great white throne is for purification.

Isaiah 45:21:25
I believe these scriptures apply to all of us not just Israel.
On Eternal it is possible this could be annihalation but it seems it wouldn't be to hard for God to save all.
So my belief Eternal is a translated word.
I apologise if I don't have questions in order yet but will try and be more organized tomorrow.

It's ok, it's just a discussion, not a debate. But please be sure to number your questions and answers that way we won't miss each other's points and have to go back during the discussion. :)
 

PKevman

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We are all being judged now sometimes we have many obstacles put in front of us and it is a matter of preservance.

I believe God raises those at the Great white throne judgement to judge them I don't see why he would raise those up just to let them die all over again.
There will be no one that will not be agreeable to God at this time.
I believe the great white throne is for purification.

Isaiah 45:21:25
I believe these scriptures apply to all of us not just Israel.
On Eternal it is possible this could be annihalation but it seems it wouldn't be to hard for God to save all.
So my belief Eternal is a translated word.
I apologise if I don't have questions in order yet but will try and be more organized tomorrow.

Yes every knee will bow and every tongue will confess, and the New Testament confirms this for us. But this doesn't mean that they are saved from their sins. In fact in that same text in verse 24 it says:

He shall say,‘ Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him.
 

Silk Queen

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Yes I believe that is what the Bible teaches is a consequence of sin. Scripture calls it the 2nd Death.

One thing I am certain I don't believe is eternal hell, the second death could possibly be annihalation.

ONLY those who please God gain eternal life with God!

Ok I will be back on this tomorrow it is a lot to take in.
I want to be certain I don't overload and not speak accurately, so I will give my mind a rest tonight.
This is very interesting and I don't want to get to many pages so I won't comprehend what you are saying. :)
I will go over what we have written tomorrow.
 

PKevman

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Acts 4:12

SQ you posted Acts 4:12, I am assuming as a proof-text for Universalism. I noticed you made MUST in all capitol letters.

Yet, this is not a proof-text for Universalism at all Ma'am.

5 And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes, 6 as well as Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the family of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, “By what power or by what name have you done this?”
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”


Peter is not saying we MUST be saved here as if there is no choice in the matter. He is simply saying there is no other way we can be saved except through Christ. There is no other name that we are able to be saved by.
 

PKevman

New member
One thing I am certain I don't believe is eternal hell, the second death could possibly be annihalation.

ONLY those who please God gain eternal life with God!

Ok I will be back on this tomorrow it is a lot to take in.
I want to be certain I don't overload and not speak accurately, so I will give my mind a rest tonight.
This is very interesting and I don't want to get to many pages so I won't comprehend what you are saying. :)
I will go over what we have written tomorrow.

Ok Ma'am. Fair enough. Good night and God bless!
 

PKevman

New member
Silk Queen said:
One thing I am certain I don't believe is eternal hell, the second death could possibly be annihalation.

We can discuss this further down the line. PKQ6 But IF the Bible actually teaches it is eternal would you accept it then?
Silk Queen said:
ONLY those who please God gain eternal life with God!

I would agree with that statement. PKQ7:And who is pleasing to God?
 

Silk Queen

New member
We can discuss this further down the line. PKQ6 But IF the Bible actually teaches it is eternal would you accept it then?


I would agree with that statement. PKQ7:And who is pleasing to God?

PkQ6
But IF the Bible actually teaches it is eternal would you accept it then?
No not necessarily only if Jesus said hell was eternal.

PKQ7 And who is pleasing to God?
Those that do the will of the Father.

Ok done for the night this time.
 

PKevman

New member
PastorKevin said:
PkQ6
But IF the Bible actually teaches it is eternal would you accept it then?

Silk Queen said:
No not necessarily only if Jesus said hell was eternal.

But SQ, 2 Timothy 3:16 says that ALL Scripture is literally God-breathed and thus is given by inspiration by God. So we cannot divorce all of the rest of Scripture from the words of Jesus and say that only what Jesus said is from God. God also appointed prophets and Apostles and gave them the ministry of writing the inspired Word.

With that being said, Jesus did in fact say it was eternal:

Matthew 10:41,46

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."




PastorKevin said:
PKQ7 And who is pleasing to God?

Silk Queen said:
Those that do the will of the Father.

I bolded DO because in that answer you are saying that we must work our way to right standing with God. That by our actions we are saved. But the Bible says:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

I guess at this point I need to know something else:

PKQ8:Do you believe that Paul was an Apostle of God and given a message by God? Do you accept the things Paul says as Scripture or not?

Ok done for the night this time.

:wave: Okeydokey, Good night!
 

PKevman

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SQ, when you get a chance to get back and respond, I have something else for you to think about. While I disagree wholeheartedly that we should only take what Jesus says about this subject and not what the rest of the Bible says, please realize that the Lord Jesus Christ gave us some of our most clear teaching on this subject. In Mark 9:43-48 he repeats in the text FIVE TIMES that the fire of hell is never quenched!

43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched
44 where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched
46 where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire—
48 where ‘ Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’


These verses plus the ones I shared with you earlier clearly show that Jesus believed in and taught the existence of eternal punishment. PKQ9: If you just read those words and you ignored anything and everything said by Universalists what would your impression be on the subject of eternal punishment?
These things were also discussed in the Old Testament Scriptures in the book of Daniel Chapter 12 and verse 2:

1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.


This is a prophecy of the end times, and the clear teaching of verse #2 is unmistakeable. The righteous will have eternal life, the wicked will have eternal shame and contempt. This clearly shows there is no return or relief for the wicked from their everlasting shame and contempt.

This also could not be annihilation because someone who is annihiliated cannot have everlasting shame and contempt. Further, someone who is eventually saved or as Universalists put it "purified" would not have everlasting shame and contempt.
 
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