The head of the body of Christ assigned each of the Twelve to a tribe of Israel which were scattered among Gentiles. Paul was not given a tribe of Israel, he got what was left.
Is M.A.D. a dangerous heresy? It demands much scripture to be ignored
- Thread starter SimpleMan77
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The head of the body of Christ assigned each of the Twelve to a tribe of Israel which were scattered among Gentiles. Paul was not given a tribe of Israel, he got what was left.
SimpleMan77
New member
It's not "precisely what happened". Peter preached the first "purified by faith" message to the Gentiles. Read history - the 12 apostles went to other nations, not just the Jews.
The Holy Spirit couldn't handle reaching the nation with 12 or 13, he did it with thousands. There were leaders God raised up, but he used many. Philip preached to an Ethiopian. Apollos, Priscilla, Aquila - all joined the "go ye".
The answer to James's question is "Faith without works is dead". Not the works of the law, but works of love. Works obedient to the Gospel.
Paul taught that, in order to stay saved and inherit eternal life, you had to be faithful to your wife, be righteous in your lifestyle, only have sexual relations with the opposite sex, worship only the true God, etc.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
If James or Peter taught that, most of you would be hollering "works" from the housetops
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Sm77, if that is what you want to believe that passage is asserting - when the very next passages relates he is talking about who they used to be but no longer are - then have at it.
You are merely continuing to prove you are not competent to this task of saving the MADs from themselves that you have set for yourself.
You will now post another passage, together with more evidence that you have gone too long in how you approach attempting to understand the passages...to be reasoned with by the Mads through said passages.
Again, it just might be the case that you mean well...
You're just not up to the task.
I appreciate your effort, but thus far...no cigar for you.
We'll have to wait another day...for you to save...the MADs...
Observe, the deception. Our perverter quotes 1 Cor. 6:9-10, KJV, but deceptively "diminishes," like his father the devil always does, the next verse.....Memorize "but....are"...
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
That is slick....Slick as a pig, sliding off the plank of a ship.....
SimpleMan77
New member
No hard feelings.
He absolutely says that they used to be that way before their salvation. They aren't that way anymore because grace changed their DESIRES and their DECISIONS.
Tempted, no doubt, in spite of their new nature, but understanding that faith and grace demanded that they resist temptation.
If you refuse that sound doctrine it's on you. I'll continue to make choices that are according to God's word.
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SimpleMan77
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DANOH I do have respect to your honesty and approach.
I think that if we put all agendas aside, you and MOST other MADists would have no problem with saying that we should "walk worthy of the vocation" (we can't be worthy of the calling, but we can walk in a worthy manner) we are called to.
I gladly confess that my works, no matter if I obeyed every one of Paul, Peter, James, & John's instructions to the letter, are a great big 0 outside of God's grace. Knowing the old man me, I also know I couldn't even desire to please Him outside of 100% grace. Please don't find fault with the grace that makes me want to live my every moment in obedience to Him. Before grace and faith I wasn't that way - trust me.
I think your approach to these conversations is the way it is because you are trying to please God. I don't think for an instant that means you are trying to earn salvation. I think you try to give blessing for cursing, good for evil, "that you may be a child of our Father in Heaven".
I try for the same... and it puts us closer to the same side than you think.
Blessings on you.
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SimpleMan77
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Also, forgot to say, but your post proves that faith has tangible results. That's why there's a before and after here. It absolutely changes a person's desires, but it also changes their decisions. That's why we grow in GRACE and KNOWLEDGE.
"Such were some of you" usually leaves some residual temptation for converts.
We DESIRE to choose the right way because of GRACE.
We CHOOSE to make the right decisions, even when the flesh wants to do the wrong thing because Of the KNOWLEDGE.
True Christians grow in both.
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Also, we have a Helper to guide us.
SimpleMan77
New member
[MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION] I'll ask you this because I believe you'll give me an honest answer. Consider these verses:
2 Corinthians 5:9-11
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Question 1: if James said this would you use it as proof he didn't believe in justification by faith?
Question 2: is Paul saying he is working so he can be accepted if Christ, knowing he must receive the reward of what he's "done in the body"?
We know Paul had received salvation by faith already, which sets up the next question.
Question 3: what would it mean if Paul appeared before the judgement seat and had chosen not to labor to be approved?
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2 Corinthians 5:9-11
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Question 1: if James said this would you use it as proof he didn't believe in justification by faith?
Question 2: is Paul saying he is working so he can be accepted if Christ, knowing he must receive the reward of what he's "done in the body"?
We know Paul had received salvation by faith already, which sets up the next question.
Question 3: what would it mean if Paul appeared before the judgement seat and had chosen not to labor to be approved?
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This coming from a guy who has created his own "Catholic/Calvinist hybrid" of a belief system for himself.
I noticed you didn't give any examples.
Give one example that shows I have done anything of the sort :AMR:
Lol - you might, or might not...care for my answer.
Paul is basically relating that he always has the Lord in mind in his dealings with others; that he is ever aware that one day; how he had conducted himself with others during his dealings with them will be called to account.
The key is the phrase "we are made manifest unto God."
It is a common theme in his writings.
Often, he uses the phrase "in the sight of God."
This is all tied, not to the Believer's inheritance, but to the reward of said inheritance and is the issue of how fit for service in glory (in said inheritance) one will be found one day, that how we conducted ourselves in our body now, will have prepared us for, then.
Some will be found fit for not much beyond sweeping floors and others will be Generals and all the other levels of service in glory...in between.
This is an entire study on what life in glory will be like.
There is much more to salvation than all this endless back and forth about who is right, who is wrong, who is up to no good, and all the rest.
There is the bigger issue of why God is even saving men to begin with, and how our conduct now impacts our rewards as to service then.
This life is merely a dress rehearsal for our life then
In this, the terror that Paul is talking about is his concern that he not be found to have disappointed the Lord; Who had wanted the best for and in each saint.
It is what He saved us unto to begin with - the purpose of salvation.
These greater issues were ever in Paul's mind; both in his teaching, and in his own conduct.
There are the various and glorious eternal issues far beyond all this mere baby talk that too many never seem to get beyond and the Corinthians were a prime example of Believers ever at one another's throats as to who was better, more accepted, who had started what nonsense first, and so on.
Both of his Epistles to them are fascinating as to these kinds of issues, their solutions, eternal consequences, and so on.
Study out the various passages in Paul's writings where he talks about being "presented unto the Lord" one day, and also, those passages where he uses the phrase "in the sight of God."
As to your question about what I would have said had James written the above passage by Paul - again you are showing you do not know where each of those men were coming from.
They were not dealing with similar issues in the same way.
Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Anyway, hope that keeps you busy studying out life in glory one day
Perhaps along the way, you'll finally put away this works for and or in order to maintain salvation confusion of yours.
SimpleMan77
New member
Lol - you might, or might not...care for my answer.
Paul is basically relating that he always has the Lord in mind in his dealings with others; that he is ever aware that one day; how he had conducted himself with others during his dealings with them will be called to account.
The key is the phrase "we are made manifest unto God."
It is a common theme in his writings.
Often, he uses the phrase "in the sight of God."
This is all tied, not to the Believer's inheritance, but to the reward of said inheritance and is the issue of how fit for service in glory (in said inheritance) one will be found one day, that how we conducted ourselves in our body now, will have prepared us for, then.
Some will be found fit for not much beyond sweeping floors and others will be Generals and all the other levels of service in glory...in between.
This is an entire study on what life in glory will be like.
There is much more to salvation than all this endless back and forth about who is right, who is wrong, who is up to no good, and all the rest.
There is the bigger issue of why God is even saving men to begin with, and how our conduct now impacts our rewards as to service then.
This life is merely a dress rehearsal for our life then
In this, the terror that Paul is talking about is his concern that he not be found to have disappointed the Lord; Who had wanted the best for and in each saint.
It is what He saved us unto to begin with - the purpose of salvation.
These greater issues were ever in Paul's mind; both in his teaching, and in his own conduct.
There are the various and glorious eternal issues far beyond all this mere baby talk that too many never seem to get beyond and the Corinthians were a prime example of Believers ever at one another's throats as to who was better, more accepted, who had started what nonsense first, and so on.
Both of his Epistles to them are fascinating as to these kinds of issues, their solutions, eternal consequences, and so on.
Study out the various passages in Paul's writings where he talks about being "presented unto the Lord" one day, and also, those passages where he uses the phrase "in the sight of God."
As to your question about what I would have said had James written the above passage by Paul - again you are showing you do not know where each of those men were coming from.
They were not dealing with similar issues in the same way.
Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Anyway, hope that keeps you busy studying out life in glory one day
Perhaps along the way, you'll finally put away this works for and or in order to maintain salvation confusion of yours.
I appreciate you actually answering the questions in a clear way, and using your understanding of Scripture.
There are some things about life in glory that are clear in scripture, but many more that are not told us.
John, the one who was closest to Jesus while He was on earth, and who was given the greatest revelation of glory said that he didn't even know what we are going to be, only that we'll be like the Lord.
Paul never really addresses it directly in detail.
God gives us enough of a glimpse to make us desire it, and that is enough. I have problems with theology that starts to interpret details the Bible doesn't give. The way I look at it we should be good stewards over what we are given here, and that will take care of itself when the time comes.
As to my "confusion", I'm sorry, but it doesn't exist. You my friend, are confused. I believe you would tell people, based on above, that the only reason to resist temptation after you believe is to not get a ground-level job in glory. You'd say you are going to heaven either way.
The Bible simply teaches that isn't true. Paul himself, said that he would be a castaway if he didn't "keep under his body" (resist temptation).
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SimpleMan77
New member
Peter preached repentance, baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost.
The same message was preached to the Samaritans, the Gentiles, and by Paul to disciples who didn't have fullness of truth (Acts 19, disciples of John the Baptist).
James taught that faith without works is dead, and Paul's writings are full of instructions on pleasing God, with Paul stating that He would be a castaway if he didn't keep his human nature in submission to God's truth.
Some MAD adherents explain away baptism, James's teaching on works, John's teaching on the absolute authority of the Apostles, etc by making the excuse that the original 12 didn't have the revelation to be giving commandments to the Gentiles, and contend their their revelation was different in nature and content than Paul's.
It ends up making some scriptures contradictory rather than complementary, which is dangerous.
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No, perverter, you assert that they are washed, sanctified, justified because of what they/you do.
The bible asserts that they are washed, sanctified, justified because of what the Saviour already did, by His dbr, 2000+ years ago.
Contrasts, between God the Father's declaration, and yours.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Stumped me there, child of the devil.
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No it doesn't.
MAD does not "write off" any scripture.
MAD does recognize the scriptures which were not for all people for all times.
MAD does not believe scripture contradicts itself, but all must be held in context.
Most do.
But most MADist do not.
Here is one of those "ANY scriptures":
Matthew 10:5 KJV
(5) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Do you seriously believe that instruction to the twelve in that day is the same instruction the BOC should adhere to today?
SimpleMan77
New member
Do you seriously believe the 12 were never to go to the Gentiles?
At this point they weren't preaching the resurrection either (it hadn't happened). Were they also supposed to only preach forever what they were preaching that day?
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Good point Tam, as usual.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Matthew 10:23 (KJV)
Once again, The Twelve had no intention of going "into all the world" until the LORD returned.
Once again, The Twelve had no intention of going "into all the world" until the LORD returned.