Is M.A.D. a dangerous heresy? It demands much scripture to be ignored

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Luke 12:50 (KJV)
Was this one water?

Water baptism symbolizes death, it is symbolic, figurative, not literal.

When Jesus yielded his spirit to the Father his baptism into death was literal, he died.

We die symbolically so we can walk in a new life with Christ, Jesus died literally.

The Father resurrected him so we could walk in our new life with him.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Water baptism symbolizes death, it is symbolic, figurative, not literal.

When Jesus yielded his spirit to the Father his baptism into death was literal, he died.

We die symbolically so we can walk in a new life with Christ, Jesus died literally.

The Father resurrected him so we could walk in our new life with him.

He had already been baptized with water when he spoke in Luke 12.
 

SimpleMan77

New member
Paul says that in the BODY, there is ONE baptism.... it's not water.

Actually the one baptism has two parts, water and Spirit, which is why Jesus said we must be born of water and of the Spirit. One new birth, 2 parts to the baptism.

Paul showed this better than anything in Acts 19. He asked if they had yet received the Holy Ghost, and when they said "no", he immediately questioned their baptism. In the early church the teaching of water baptism ALWAYS accompanied the teaching of receiving the Holy Ghost. They were always separate experiences, but part of the same one baptism.

Paul had these disciples re-baptized, "and when" he had laid his hands on them they received the Holy Ghost and spoke with tongues.


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SimpleMan77

New member
Is M.A.D. a dangerous heresy? It demands much scripture to be ignored

He had already been baptized with water when he spoke in Luke 12.

In Luke 12, Jesus was obviously talking about His purpose for being here, which was his death.
Luke 12:50
But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
This was still in the future at the time He spoke it, so he wasn't referring to Spirit baptism. If you are saying that there is only one baptism for the current church, I guess this Must be it - physical death as a sacrifice.
Jesus told his disciples's in Mark 10 "with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized".
So the word baptism can be symbolic, and there are at least two symbolic baptisms in Scripture.
The 1 baptism of the early church was always 2 parts - water and Spirit. See my last post for my defense of that point.


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Right Divider

Body part
Actually the one baptism has two parts, water and Spirit, which is why Jesus said we must be born of water and of the Spirit. One new birth, 2 parts to the baptism.
So now you're confused about Israel's rebirth.

Sorry for the long quote, but it's needed:

Isa 66:5-24 (AKJV/PCE)
(66:5) ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. (66:6) A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. (66:7) Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. (66:8) Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. (66:9) Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut [the womb]? saith thy God. (66:10) Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: (66:11) That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. (66:12) For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon [her] sides, and be dandled upon [her] knees. (66:13) As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. (66:14) And when ye see [this], your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and [his] indignation toward his enemies. (66:15) For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. (66:16) For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. (66:17) They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. (66:18) For I [know] their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. (66:19) And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, [to] Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, [to] Tubal, and Javan, [to] the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. (66:20) And they shall bring all your brethren [for] an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. (66:21) And I will also take of them for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD. (66:22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. (66:23) And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. (66:24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

That is Israel's rebirth. That is what Jesus was talking about in John 3. Also see Ezekiel 37.

Ezek 37:11-14 (AKJV/PCE)
(37:11) ¶ Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. (37:12) Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. (37:13) And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, (37:14) And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.

Paul showed this better than anything in Acts 19. He asked if they had yet received the Holy Ghost, and when they said "no", he immediately questioned their baptism. In the early church the teaching of water baptism ALWAYS accompanied the teaching of receiving the Holy Ghost. They were always separate experiences, but part of the same one baptism.

Paul had these disciples re-baptized, "and when" he had laid his hands on them they received the Holy Ghost and spoke with tongues.
Those disciples were of the nation of Israel. The body of Christ is not the nation of Israel.
 

SimpleMan77

New member
Those disciples were of the nation of Israel. The body of Christ is not the nation of Israel.

Actually all those who are "in Christ" are part of His body. Synonymous terms used by Paul, Peter & John.

How can you be a part of His body without being "in Him". How can you be "in Him", without being a part of "His Body"?
Synonymous


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SimpleMan77

New member
Is M.A.D. a dangerous heresy? It demands much scripture to be ignored

That's a story, not a true story; but a story.

That's a weak rebuttal. I can quote a lot of Scriptures about being "in Christ", many by Paul, where he uses it in context of "the Body of Christ".

How could being "in Christ" not be the same as being a part of "His Body"?


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Right Divider

Body part
That's a weak rebuttal.
A weak story deserves a weak rebuttal.

I can quote a lot of Scriptures about being "in Christ", many by Paul, where he uses it in context of "the Body of Christ".
We can all quote lots of scripture and make claims about it.

How could being "in Christ" not be the same as being a part of "His Body"?
Because there is more than one way to be "in Christ".

God chose Israel for His own purpose on the earth.
God chose the body of Christ for His own purpose in heaven.

Eph 1:10 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

It's not that hard unless you want to try to smash it all together, like you do.
 

SimpleMan77

New member
A weak story deserves a weak rebuttal.


We can all quote lots of scripture and make claims about it.


Because there is more than one way to be "in Christ".

God chose Israel for His own purpose on the earth.
God chose the body of Christ for His own purpose in heaven.

Eph 1:10 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

It's not that hard unless you want to try to smash it all together, like you do.

Ephesians 1:10 is referring to the completion of the work of His Body.

Even the making of husband and wife to be "one flesh" refers to the plans of God to be unified with His church, and to "gather together all things in Christ".

As is the portion of the Spirit that we have, we get a down payment.

Membership in "His Body" here is a down payment of the fullness of being a part of His Body in eternity.

Ephesians 1:10 makes my point precisely.


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Right Divider

Body part
Ephesians 1:10 is referring to the completion of the work of His Body.
No, it is not.

Even the making of husband and wife to be "one flesh" refers to the plans of God to be unified with His church, and to "gather together all things in Christ".

As is the portion of the Spirit that we have, we get a down payment.

Membership in "His Body" here is a down payment of the fullness of being a part of His Body in eternity.

Ephesians 1:10 makes my point precisely.
No, it does not.
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
Cornelius was saved before being water baptized.(Acts 10:44-48)

Only a believer is indwelt with the Spirit of God.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John even said it:

Matthew 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Which is what happened to Cornelius.

Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. Not water.

1 Corinthians 1:16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that I do not remember baptizing anyone else. 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with eloquent words of wisdom, lest the cross of the Christ be emptied of its power. 18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.…

For something sooo important as you say, why didn't Paul need to not hinder them from being water baptized the moment they received Christ?

If Cornelius would have heard Peter command water baptism, and refused, he would have become "unsaved" in a hurry.


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Sorry, Peter didn't save Cornelius, Christ did and you didn't answer my question.

Question, if i walk the isle at church, and confess Christ and then i am told i will be water baptized the next week - what happens to me if i die before having water applied to wash my sin away?

I never said anything about Peter saving Cornelius. God saved him, using Peter's preaching. If Cornelius would have decided he didn't believe and didn't need to obey God's word spoken through Peter, Cornelius would have lost his salvation.

Don't see a question, just a bunch of statements. Ask a question and I'll answer it.


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I see your question in the post above. Stand by for an answer.


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Still waiting for responses to my 2 questions to you, that you had me wait for last night yet never answered.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Paul taught salvation from the Hebrew scriptures.

Your made-up fantasy baptism is not supported by the Hebrew Bible.
Paul also WROTE scripture that you don't believe.

Baptism pictures death in a watery grave by immersion, your baptism pictures nothing.
Utter nonsense. Where does the Bible mention this "pictures death in a watery grave"?

Watery grave.... just like Jesus? :doh:

"My" baptism doesn't need a "picture".

1Cor 12:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I've been baptized into the body. You should get baptized into it also.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Yes, spiritual cleansing, i.e., the remission of sin.

Also I see water baptism and the receiving of Christ's Spirit as a marriage ceremony, is that how you see it?
No, I see water baptism as God's command for His kingdom of priests.

The body of Christ has no priesthood.

It's simple and it's all explained in the Bible.
 
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