ECT Is "Hell" divine torture or divine justice?

[Word based mystic]

So simple it cannot be explained away...

Jesus described what the punishment is. The rich man who was tormented in flames was NOT annihilated.
SUPPOSITION


It only means one thing: torment is eternal and conscious.
SUPPOSITION

Imagining that God would wake all the dead to judge them so that He would then put them to death again is foolish.
WHY IS IT FOOLISH?? SUPPOSITION/SPECULATION. RESURRECTED FOR DESTRUCTION TO PROVE A POINT TO THE REBELLIOUS SPIRITS THAT THE WICKED DESERVE PUNISHMENT AND THAT PUNISHMENT IS DESTRUCTION. THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL ASSIST IN JUDGING ANGELS.

Scripture says that it is appointed unto men ONCE to die. After that comes judgment. They don't die a second time, since the 'second death' is being cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone
CORRECT. FIRST DEATH IS FLESHLY. 2ND DEATH HAPPENS IN THE ETERNAL FIRE WHICH EQUALS [PERISH] (APPOLUMI {DESTROY COMPLETELY})

which is eternal conscious torment.

SPECULATION AND ASSUMPTION

IGNORING THE FULLNESS OF THEMES AND SCRIPTURES BY NOT INCLUDING THE OTHER SCRIPTURES THAT GIVE CONTEXT TO THE QUESTION OF THOSE THAT CHANGE THE MEANING OF (ETERNAL) TO NEVER ENDING.

interpretations on subjects like this should always include and consider the fullness of scripture and all the scriptures related.

the questions on this subject are

Is the wicked unsaved soul immortal?
do the wicked also have eternal life?
does death, hell and the grave continue. do they resist the destruction of the old heaven and earth?
is death, hell and the grave overcome in victory or are they more powerful than the flame which destroys?
do those things that are perishable actually perish?

Does the new heaven and earth where righteousness dwell still have the existence of hell, death and the grave and sin and the wicked

the new heaven and earth is defined with righteousness
and the tears of those that remain shall be wiped away.
why would their tears be wiped away?? hmm they are with God and have eternal life. why would their tears need to be wiped away.
ahhh. ohh. those that they loved and did not receive eternal life are finally destroyed and perish. hmmm Gods love is even greater than the tears and love and hopes of his crying saints. He brings an ultimate end to the torment at (the end of the ages) where righteous dwells.

I will list many of the scriptures or issues that contradict the wicked having eternal life or having immortality. much of the list will have the things that (ect) believers ignore

coming soon.

then maybe you can see The Fathers heart towards His children and that putting an end and causing his children that he made will to at least have an end to their suffering and sin by being destroyed in the lake of fire is mercy

as much mercy as putting a bullet in the head of a lame horse that is suffering.
psalm 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all of his ways and graciously loving in all of his activities.

even in Gods judgements their is mercy and compassion.
not sadistic glee to enjoy never ending torture.

 

[Word based mystic]

Hell

eternal is not never ending it is till the end of ages, before the new heaven and earth comes where righteousness will dwell.
you add to scripture to keep your doctrine.

you add to scripture by giving eternal life to the wicked soul just in a different place

you ignore the scriptures that relate their will be a new heaven and earth and the old one has passed away including. death hell and the grave.

you ignore the scripture genesis 3:22 Which God clearly shows He does not want man to have eternal life in a state of sin and misery.

you ignore the Fathers heart of God towards his created child. Not even the most wicked and sadistic father would put his child in a barn nearby string them up and torture them never ending without putting them out of their misery after the punishment/lesson/2nd is done ((SICK)) no reason for this never ending torture.

you ignore lucifers end in ezekiel 28:18 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become [a]terrified
And you will (cease to be forever.”)

you ignore matthew 10:28 which puts a punctuation mark that the soul shall be destroyed by fire, what does fire do?
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

you ignore that only the born again receive an immortal body

2 thess 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming

Genesis 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.
Spiritual death happened here. No longer was the soul viable for immortality or eternal life.
The soul is then perishable and destructible.

And thus God not desiring man to live in this state stopped man from eating from the tree of eternal life.
IT IS NOT WHAT GOD DESIRED MAN TO HAVE IN ANY FASHION AND DID NOT WANT THAT STATE OF MISERY AND DECAY TO BE NEVER ENDING.


i believe timotheos did a good job of summarizing the scriptures that ect advocates ignore.
please review his list and take the ((fullness)) of scripture and apply it.

ignore
ignore
is all that can be done in order to maintain (ECT) never ending torture. Not a fathers heart.

 

[Aimiel]

snip... I ALWAYS ignore what's typed in ALL caps. Sounds like someone needs anger-management.

interpretations on subjects like this should always include and consider the fullness of scripture and all the scriptures related.

Considering the 'fullness' of Scripture should never exclude Scriptures, too. :duh:

the questions on this subject are

Is the wicked unsaved soul immortal?

I believe that what God creates lasts until He un-creates it. There's nowhere in Scripture that states that He does such (other than earth and Heaven being replaced by Earth II and Heaven II).

do the wicked also have eternal life?

I don't consider what they have in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone to be life.

does death, hell and the grave continue.

They were defeated at Calvary. They shall be punished, along with ALL other principalities, powers and rulers of the darkness of this world.

do they resist the destruction of the old heaven and earth?

The Lake of Fire and Brimstone is not described as being part of either.

is death, hell and the grave overcome in victory or are they more powerful than the flame which destroys?

That doesn't make sense.

do those things that are perishable actually perish?

Jesus didn't say that those who harm one of His little ones would die, but He DID say that it would be better for them had they never been born. If they were merely put to death, how could that saying possibly be true?

Does the new heaven and earth where righteousness dwell still have the existence of hell, death and the grave and sin and the wicked

I don't know. I don't see any description of them anywhere in Scripture, though I doubt that they will.

the new heaven and earth is defined with righteousness
and the tears of those that remain shall be wiped away.

Our tears being wiped away doesn't say that those who are judged will no longer exist or be excused from torments.

why would their tears be wiped away?

Because God is gracious and just.

He brings an ultimate end to the torment at (the end of the ages) where righteous dwells.

Do you have a Scripture that says that? I've never seen any.

then maybe you can see The Fathers heart towards His children and that putting an end and causing his children that he made will to at least have an end to their suffering and sin by being destroyed in the lake of fire is mercy

His Judgments are mercy.

even in Gods judgements their is mercy and compassion not sadistic glee to enjoy never ending torture.

God doesn't enjoy the torment of the souls whom He punishes. He wipes away our tears. He never said that He would wipe His own away.

 

[Word based mystic]

once again ignore the fullness of scriptures that relate to destruction and perish.
cease to be forever.

so much ignored
and much of your replies above are once again speculative.

Scripture blends together.

i dont ignore the eternal flame flame that exists till the end of age.
i include it and eternal (end of age) verifies the perish and cease to exist as well as
matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

you ignore genesis 3:22
ignore genesis 2:17

put it all together and you have a heaven and earth that righteousness exists

never never land where you believe the lake of fire is created is not a solid platform for you to stand on it is speculative.

as to Jesus relating to those that would it be that they were never born.
yup hell and (torment) till the end of the age is rough. and implies the very thing i support. some will vanish away quicker some will last till the very end of the age like satan. But all will perish and or be destroyed. scripture states this.

you have not addressed much of the above scriptures and the scriptures timotheos has presented.
Put them together in fullness please. don't ignore. matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

 

[Aimiel]

I don't see them being annihilated. I do see evidence that they will be tormented forever. I cannot ignore it.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Word based mystic]

I don't see them being annihilated. I do see evidence that they will be tormented forever. I cannot ignore it.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

forever. Till the end of the age.

 

[Aimiel]

The age we speak of is called: "Eternity," for a reason.

 

[Word based mystic]

The age we speak of is called: "Eternity," for a reason.

yup both eternal and forever are rooted in aion age of (relating to this world) within the time period or age.

neither have a connotation of your translation of NEVER ENDING or WITHOUT END.

and once again you ignore
matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

and all the other scriptures that relate to the soul of the wicked perish


I am glad you are stubborn in your convictions
It shows strength of character.

 

[Timotheos]

Logic dictates that we don't dissect Scripture to create doctrine. Death is the wages of sin but after that there is judgment.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

Why should there be judgment if death were all there is to it? There would only be death. The judgment of eternal damnation is there in Scripture and ignoring it won't make it go away.

Death is the result of the judgment. You say "we don't dissect scripture to create doctrine". So don't do that. Scripture says that the wages of sin is death. The wages are the what is paid as a result of something. Don't dissect Scripture, accept what it says. You talk about death as if it were nothing. That's wrong thinking. If we can have eternal LIFE in Christ, then not having eternal life is having death. That is not a little problem. Your issue is that you think that losing out on life is not a problem. Try it, and see if you like it. You'll be dead. That's a big problem.

 

[Timotheos]

I don't see them being annihilated.

Seriously? Is this not in your Bible?
But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed...Psalm 37:38
You don't see transgressors being destroyed? Really?

Now that you have seen the scripture that says that transgressors will be destroyed, do you still not see them being destroyed?

Is this merely an issue of stubborn denial of the facts?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

So simple it cannot be explained away...

Jesus described what the punishment is. The rich man who was tormented in flames was NOT annihilated. Neither could he find any water. He longed for even a single drop. Neither could he escape the flames which were tormenting him. If what Jesus described were symbolic: what did the 'symbols' mean? It only means one thing: torment is eternal and conscious.

This is explainable from Rev.ch 21.

The rich man who did not share his blessings from God with the man at the gate, represents those of the covenant with God who remain greedy and selfish.(goats Mat.ch 25) Ez.ch 34.



We see this today when preachers preach the riches of Christ as being money. Rev.ch 3.

The parable does not refer to the judgment of all men when any whose name is NOT in the book of life is thrown into the fire and perish forever.

Imagining that God would wake all the dead to judge them so that He would then put them to death again is foolish. Scripture says that it is appointed unto men ONCE to die. After that comes judgment. They don't die a second time, since the 'second death' is being cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone which is eternal conscious torment.

One is rendered unconscious at the first death, how much more at the second.

LA

 

[Aimiel]

This is explainable from Rev.ch 21.

The rich man who did not share his blessings from God with the man at the gate, represents those of the covenant with God who remain greedy and selfish.(goats Mat.ch 25) Ez.ch 34. We see this today when preachers preach the riches of Christ as being money. Rev.ch 3.

I really don't see how you got that from the rich man in hell.

The parable does not refer to the judgment of all men when any whose name is NOT in the book of life is thrown into the fire and perish forever.

I don't buy annihilation, since Scripture teaches ECT... it does however describe hell quite graphically.

One is rendered unconscious at the first death, how much more at the second.

What makes you think a man's spirit can become un-aware of anything?

 

[OCTOBER23]

There will be a Lake of Oil in Saudi Arabia that will be on fire

and used to burn Garbage and that is where Satan will probably be thrown.

The Bad Guys will be Working there throwing all the Garbage into the Fire.