ECT IDW's 'Supposed' 'gifted' 'Free'will

[oatmeal]

I don't think it's an "element." I think it is wholly redundant. If you say you have a will, it must be free. If you say you have a free will, it implies there is something you are forced to believe no matter what. That would be wrong.

I would say it "bars the way" rather than "slows the progress."

We have wills to choose to serve God, but having a will does not remove obstacles to exercising the will.




With the amount of posts I have under my belt, it had to happen sooner or later.

Well, it would seem we are generally in agreement

 

[Stripe]

You say that any will that is not free is not a will. You may well "will" to do X, Y, and Z - any one of which may be "Do God's will" or "Obey God" or some such thing. But what are you really willing? What are you signing on to? All that which goes along with it is what is really at stake. So when you get to a requirement that directly contradicts what you "want" to do, you find that while you may have willed to be obedient to God (in name only) the truth is that you don't - at heart - have the real ability to do so (nor the inclination). File that under the Jeremiah 17:9 category. It's of the same type of deception that people who think they are good encounter. They find they aren't. The Ten Commandments are a good way of revealing that.

I've no idea what you're trying to say.

For the record, what you "want" to do is not equivalent to what you "will" to do. You can will to do that which you do not want.

But a little more on the philosophical side, this idea of the will being free misses the deeper issue (I think). To me the concept of this free will is illusory. It only goes so far - and is really inadequate to cover the depths of corruption we know as fallen sons of Adam.

If it goes any way at all, that is free. If it is not free, it is not a will.

The corruption we know is because of our will being in opposition to God.

Don't think of an elephant. Of course you probably did (and you have no doubt done this before). That's how easy it is for sin to gain an entrance into our minds and hearts. That elephant can waltz right in and do what it wants (provided God allows it). Sin is actually even deeper than just the thought - it then goes to the intents of the heart. The deep recesses that are covered by Jeremiah 17:9 above. The REAL intents and thoughts that a man has apart from God are all wicked and lead to death. You may be "free" to will differently, but without the Spirit of God there is no real defence against your own lusts and the wiles of the devil. And you (again, apart from God) naturally desire to please yourself.

Which means what? We do not have a will?

The "free" will is just a superficial assessment.

So you think people do not have the ability to choose?

Isn't that what having a "freewill" is all about, "always capable"?

No. People can choose to believe what they want regardless of what they are capable of doing.

Well, it would seem we are generally in agreement

Except over your choice of username. :AMR:

 

[Cross Reference]

But a little more on the philosophical side, this idea of the will being free misses the deeper issue (I think). To me the concept of this free will is illusory. It only goes so far - and is really inadequate to cover the depths of corruption we know as fallen sons of Adam.

That elephant can waltz right in and do what it wants (provided God allows it).

The elephant tried that with Jesus in the wilderness and with God's permission did he try. Jesus resisted it. By what means did He resist is the same way we are given to resist it.

Sin is actually even deeper than just the thought - it then goes to the intents of the heart.

Then why, in that day, will man be judged for his "deeds"?

The deep recesses that are covered by Jeremiah 17:9 above.

That is not a deed.

The REAL intents and thoughts that a man has apart from God are all wicked and lead to death.

And man is "without excuse" for not endeavoring to correct that situation. Thoughts are not deeds unless they become deeds, either for good or evil.

And You may be "free" to will differently, but without the Spirit of God there is no real defence against your own lusts and the wiles of the devil. And you (again, apart from God) naturally desire to please yourself.

Against the devil, perhaps, however, unless a reprobate, we have the capability to overcome our flesh.

The Word of God (Hebrews 4:12) penetrates to the dividing of soul from spirit...thoughts from intents. And the man who knows the depths of his own heart apart from God knows (without a doubt) just how true Jeremiah 17:9 is for everyone. The "free" will is just a superficial assessment.

Then this verse is a lie: "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." James 4:7 (KJV)

Question: How did Jesus resist the "elephant" __ the devil?

 

[nikolai_42]

The elephant tried that with Jesus in the wilderness and with God's permission did he try. Jesus resisted it. By what means did He resist is the same way we are given to resist it.

If in Him, we have that victory. If not, we don't. That's a part of "total depravity".

Then why, in that day, will man be judged for his "deeds"?

Because fruit shows what kind of tree it comes from. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and vice versa.

That is not a deed.

It doesn't matter...it need not be.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 6:5

And man is "without excuse" for not endeavoring to correct that situation. Thoughts are not deeds unless they become deeds, either for good or evil.

Lust...adultery. Unjustified hatred...murder.

As a man thinketh in his heart...so is he.

Against the devil, perhaps, however, unless a reprobate, we have the capability to overcome our flesh.

In Christ, yes.

Then this verse is a lie: "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." James 4:7 (KJV)

Question: How Jesus resist the "elephant" __ the devil?

The point of free will and the debate is that bondage to the will of sin is what we have without Christ. So these things that deal with believers does not address the same issue.

 

[Cross Reference]

If in Him, we have that victory. If not, we don't. That's a part of "total depravity".

Lets go no further in this with me because I am dead to what you have to say if you don't.

There is no such thing as man being totally depraved. It is not found in the Bible unless it has been God Who has turn man over to it because of his obstinacy. Quite the contrary is found there in that man has from the beginning been given the capability to worship God and what happens to man if he refuses to retain the knowledge of God in his thinking..
Read Romans 1 again, for the first time. <this is sickening>

You need to deal with that aspect of the truth before trying to fathom out other issues.

In your last you have dismissed out of hand everything previously discussed that has been shown you from the scriptures that reveal your error.

 

[Word based mystic]

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore choose life that both thou and thy seed may live. (Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV)​

that is a disturbing pic you have of your cat. did you throw him in?

 

[oatmeal]

I've no idea what you're trying to say.

For the record, what you "want" to do is not equivalent to what you "will" to do. You can will to do that which you do not want.

If it goes any way at all, that is free. If it is not free, it is not a will.

The corruption we know is because of our will being in opposition to God.

Which means what? We do not have a will?

So you think people do not have the ability to choose?

No. People can choose to believe what they want regardless of what they are capable of doing.

Except over your choice of username. :AMR:

Evidently, you do not like oatmeal?

Actually I do not like cooked oatmeal

 

[oatmeal]

Evidently, you do not like oatmeal?

Actually I do not like cooked oatmeal

I used my free will to choose the username "oatmeal" even though I do not eat cooked oatmeal.

Jesus Christ referred to himself as "the bread of life."

He did not refer to himself as "the eight course meal in a five star restaurant of life."

 

[chrysostom]

Evidently, you do not like oatmeal?

Actually I do not like cooked oatmeal

I eat it dry

 

[oatmeal]

I eat it dry

I sprinkle it on top of my cereal and milk sometimes.

Other than that I do not eat it.

Some say it has a lot of fiber, good for digestion and a the GI tract.

But so does other foods

 

[Tambora]

Limited isn't 'free.'

Does God have any limitations as to what He can and cannot do?

 

[Dan Emanuel]

Moved to here so his own thread doesn't derail any further.

I believe a will is not really free other than 'free from God' as sinners, nor that such is a gift from God, but from our fallen ancestor Adam:

LOTS of discussion on this specific that will likely take us on a long journey away from Salvation by Grace.

I believe you and I have a will and that it is enslaved to sin/free from God and then conversely enslaved to God and righteousness and free from sin and it's consequences.

I believe that a will to do anything other than what God intended for us, is not a gift, nor free. God told Adam and Eve in Genesis, that such a thing actually led to death, that it was not in fact, free. I believe in a will that either is enslaved to sin, or conversely in Christ, enslaved to God once again, as it should be. I 'used' to think like you and thought that my will to not obey was a gift, but then that stopped making sense to me in light of taking up my cross and following as well as "...not my will, but Thine..."

Matthew 6:24 "No slave can serve two masters..."

From Luke 19:

And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?​

For me, they're is really only 1 way to understand free will when I read that parable.

Sometime's, you have to make the right choice, even when its terrifying; they'res no other option. Your on a tightrope and their's no safety net. Buh-bye; if you fall. You can't fall. Its not an option.


Daniel

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe a will is not really free other than 'free from God' as sinners, nor that such is a gift from God, but from our fallen ancestor Adam:

Let us look what the Calvinists say here:

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

According to the Calvinists the Lord makes us so that we are wholly inclined to all evil then He punishes us for doing the very thing which He designed us to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

The Calvinists portray the LORD as a cruel Master who would punish man severely for doing the thing which He designed them to do. The God they portray is a sadistic God!

They know nothing of the God of love.

 

[oatmeal]

Moved to here so his own thread doesn't derail any further.

I believe a will is not really free other than 'free from God' as sinners, nor that such is a gift from God, but from our fallen ancestor Adam:

LOTS of discussion on this specific that will likely take us on a long journey away from Salvation by Grace.

I believe you and I have a will and that it is enslaved to sin/free from God and then conversely enslaved to God and righteousness and free from sin and it's consequences.

I believe that a will to do anything other than what God intended for us, is not a gift, nor free. God told Adam and Eve in Genesis, that such a thing actually led to death, that it was not in fact, free. I believe in a will that either is enslaved to sin, or conversely in Christ, enslaved to God once again, as it should be. I 'used' to think like you and thought that my will to not obey was a gift, but then that stopped making sense to me in light of taking up my cross and following as well as "...not my will, but Thine..."

Matthew 6:24 "No slave can serve two masters..."

Will you do me a favor?

Would you please provide your working definition of "free"?

Will you do that for us?

Would you please provide your working definition of "will"?

What are the two Greek words commonly translated will or desire?

What is the difference between the meanings?

What are the implications of the difference between the definitions?

Does either definition resemble your working definition?

 

[oatmeal]

Let us look what the Calvinists say here:

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

According to the Calvinists the Lord makes us so that we are wholly inclined to all evil then He punishes us for doing the very thing which He designed us to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

The Calvinists portray the LORD as a cruel Master who would punish man severely for doing the thing which He designed them to do. The God they portray is a sadistic God!

They know nothing of the God of love.

Well said!

 

[Totton Linnet]

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore choose life that both thou and thy seed may live. (Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV)​

This is people's idea of freewill....it is no such thing

If man did have freewill he would say I choose to live but I refuse to be righteousness.

That was not on the menu, the One who makes the options is the One with free sovereign will.

If we choose life that is GOD'S will, if we choose death we die...dead men do not have freewill.

 

[Totton Linnet]

's no such thing as freewill

 

[oatmeal]

's no such thing as freewill

So, are you saying that individuals are not responsible for what they do in life?

That they had no choice in the matter whatsoever?

If so, then why criticize anyone at anytime for anything at all?

For that matter, why praise anyone at anytime for anything at all?

 

[Totton Linnet]

So, are you saying that individuals are not responsible for what they do in life?

That they had no choice in the matter whatsoever?

Is that so frightful? I'll tell you why you think it is frightful...you do not really trust God to be just.

In Eden when man was in the midst of God's beauty and abundance and with every cause and reason to be thankful and in awe of His Creator...he sinned, he rebelled. He joined Satan, God's arch enemy.

That Adam is representative of ALL men is clear for that all men sin.

Having chosen to rebel against God so wickedly, it is not now for any man to choose to live...if God sets you FREE to choose blessed are you.

Man chose wickedness over uprightness
He chose bondage over freedom
He chose death over life

Did God ask permission of anybody on TOL whether they should be born or not? did He even consult anybody?

Why do people think He has to come and akse anybody's permission to save them?

 

[oatmeal]

Is that so frightful? I'll tell you why you think it is frightful...you do not really trust God to be just.

In Eden when man was in the midst of God's beauty and abundance and with every cause and reason to be thankful and in awe of His Creator...he sinned, he rebelled. He joined Satan, God's arch enemy.

That Adam is representative of ALL men is clear for that all men sin.

Having chosen to rebel against God so wickedly, it is not now for any man to choose to live...if God sets you FREE to choose blessed are you.

Man chose wickedness over uprightness
He chose bondage over freedom
He chose death over life

Did God ask permission of anybody on TOL whether they should be born or not? did He even consult anybody?

Why do people think He has to come and akse anybody's permission to save them?

If I have no free will, then I cannot choose to trust in God.

IF what you say about me is true, why do you demean me, for according to you, I had no choice in the matter.

You should be demeaning God, if indeed, He gave me no choice as to believe or trust in Him or not.

Why blame me for what I cannot change?