How did His sheep get lost?

ttruscott

Active member
How did His sheep get lost?

1. The fault was in the Shepherd...He sent them as corrupt out into the world (Matt 13:36-39) to take their chances in the evil world.

2. The fault is in the Shepherd's enemy, the wolf in serpent's clothing dragged the sheep off and He could not or decided to not stop it.

3. The sheep went astray because the grass looked greener in sin city and they and only they have any fault in their being lost.


1. is inherited sin,
2. is Satan did it and the Shepherd let it happen and
3. is by our own free will.

Most, if not all of orthodoxy accepts #1 with no qualms...sigh,
peace, Ted
 

ok doser

Well-known member
They were led astray by well meaning spiritual leaders who were not Spirit-led



And if you are not spirit-led, whether you know it or not, you're led by the other guy
 

ffreeloader

Well-known member
Sheep by nature get lost. If you've never actually worked with sheep you don't know how absolutely stupid sheep are. If the sheep on front of the one following it jumps at a certain spot the sheep following will make exactly the same jump in exactly the same spot whether there is an obstacle there or not. They just mindlessly follow the one in front of them. And a sheep that doesn't know his shepherds voice is absolutely lost. It has no way of finding home without being shepherded home.

If you stampede a flock towards a cliff they will follow one another over the cliff and commit mass suicide. They will not stop on their own. Someone else has to get them to follow another leader and thus lead them away from the cliff.

We are still following that leap Eve made in the Garden as without recognizing the shepherd's voice we are lost. There is a reason that the Bible calls us sheep. We are incapable of finding our own way home, and we are very stupid compared to our enemy. He leads us over the cliff of doubt on a very regular basis.
 

Right Divider

Body part
There is a reason that the Bible calls us sheep.
Who is "US"? Are you a Jew? The only people that God called His sheep are those of the nation of Israel.

Paul never once calls the body of Christ sheep... NOT ONCE.

The only time Paul uses "sheep" is to say NAY (NO) we are NOT sheep.
Rom 8:36-37 (AKJV/PCE)
(8:36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (8:37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
 

ffreeloader

Well-known member
Who is "US"? Are you a Jew? The only people that God called His sheep are those of the nation of Israel.

Paul never once calls the body of Christ sheep... NOT ONCE.

The only time Paul uses "sheep" is to say NAY (NO) we are NOT sheep.
You have ripped Romans 8:38 completely out of context. Let's look at the entire surrounding context.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Verse 31 refers back to the previous verses I have included here. It also is the context for the rest of the chapter. Verse 35 is asking asking rhetorical questions as to who or what shall separate us from Jesus and verse 36 extends that thought for it says we are being killed all day as sheep for the slaughter. Then Paul answers his rhetorical questions as to who or what can separate us from Jesus in verse 37. He says that none of those evils he previously listed are capable of separating us from the love of Christ. And in the last two verses he reaffirms that there is no external agent that can separate us from the love of God. So in verse Paul is referring to us as sheep.

As to me being a Jew? Here's what Paul says about who is a real Jew.

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Yeah, by Paul's definition I am a real Jew. Do I claim I am descended from Abraham? Only by faith for by faith Abraham became the father of many nations. Those many nations are the Gentiles, and Paul speaks to that.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 

Right Divider

Body part
You have ripped Romans 8:38 completely out of context. Let's look at the entire surrounding context.
That is a lie.
Verse 31 refers back to the previous verses I have included here. It also is the context for the rest of the chapter. Verse 35 is asking asking rhetorical questions as to who or what shall separate us from Jesus and verse 36 extends that thought for it says we are being killed all day as sheep for the slaughter. Then Paul answers his rhetorical questions as to who or what can separate us from Jesus in verse 37. He says that none of those evils he previously listed are capable of separating us from the love of Christ. And in the last two verses he reaffirms that there is no external agent that can separate us from the love of God. So in verse Paul is referring to us as sheep.
Rom 8:36-37 KJV As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Sheep are most certainly NOT conquerors, so my interpretation stands.

Note AGAIN that this is the ONLY time that the word "sheep" appears in all of Paul's THIRTEEN epistles.
As to me being a Jew? Here's what Paul says about who is a real Jew.
A classic case of turning scripture on its head.
Yeah, by Paul's definition I am a real Jew. Do I claim I am descended from Abraham? Only by faith for by faith Abraham became the father of many nations. Those many nations are the Gentiles, and Paul speaks to that.
No, you're not. Paul is talking about actual Jews in Romans 2 and is not somehow including gentiles "as Jews". Paul's thoughts do NOT stop abruptly at Romans 2:29... read ON!
Rom 3:1-4 KJV What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? (2) Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. (3) For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? (4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
 
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ffreeloader

Well-known member
That is a lie.


Sheep are most certainly NOT conquerors, so my interpretation stands.

Note AGAIN that this is the ONLY time that the word "sheep" appears in all of Paul's THIRTEEN epistles.

A classic case of turning scripture on its head.

No, you're not. Paul is talking about actual Jews in Romans 2 and is not somehow including gentiles "as Jews". Paul's thoughts do NOT stop abruptly at Romans 2:29... read ON!

Sheep most certainly can be overcomers. They are overcomers through faith in Jesus. You don't seem to have much faith in God if you claim a sheep can not be an overcomer. Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice and follow me. He also said He is the good shepherd. And He also gave the parable of the 90 and 9 where 99 of His sheep were safe in the fold but one was lost, and He, the good shepherd, left the 99 to go in search of that one lost sheep.

I'll go with Jesus every time and MADists can go believe what they want. It's not my job to convince you to change your mind.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Sheep most certainly can be overcomers.
LOL. You just told us how stupid they are.
They are overcomers through faith in Jesus.
The only people IN THE BIBLE that God calls His sheep are.... ISRAEL.
You don't seem to have much faith in God if you claim a sheep can not be an overcomer. Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice and follow me. He also said He is the good shepherd.
He is the good shepherd in regard to... THE PEOPLE of ISRAEL.
And He also gave the parable of the 90 and 9 where 99 of His sheep were safe in the fold but one was lost, and He, the good shepherd, left the 99 to go in search of that one lost sheep.
Indeed He did... during His ministry to.... ISRAEL.
Mat 10:5-6 KJV These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 15:24 KJV But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Rom 15:8 KJV Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

2Co 5:16 KJV Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
You have not followed ALL that God is doing. You are stuck where you don't belong.
I'll go with Jesus every time and MADists can go believe what they want. It's not my job to convince you to change your mind.
That's really funny. I go with Jesus every time... YOU DO NOT.
 

ttruscott

Active member
Who is "US"? Are you a Jew? The only people that God called His sheep are those of the nation of Israel.

Paul never once calls the body of Christ sheep... NOT ONCE.
Peter calls Christians sheep in an allusion to the Jews being called sheep by Isaiah: 1 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have RETURNED to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Well,TO RETURN, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray were at one time part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from His care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must involve some rebellion, and rebellion to GOD makes one a sinner. Therefore, it is normally obvious that Peter is writing to some apostatized (gone astray) Christians (people of the flock). It is also normally apparent that what he was writing is intended for every new convert in every age since. Therefore, it seems that the Holy Spirit would have us believe that all of the Church has personally apostatized from Christ prior to their conversion to Him in this life. Since we are conceived as sinners, it is easy to see that we apostatized from Christ before our conception and that is why we are sinners at our birth.

I think that Peter bore added witness to this fact in 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ...which ... hath begotten us again unto a lively hope... Just when was the first time you were begotten by GOD? And when did you get unbegotten, so as to be able to be begotten again? Well, unless you are one of those earthly backslidden types, the only time such an un-begetting or rebellion could have taken place is prior to your conception. And since Peter is writing to the whole Church rather than to just the backslidden types, he must be referring to a pre-conception rebellion and the straying of His elect since that time, which straying or rebellion ends only upon conversion to obedience unto holiness to that Shepherd, that is, upon being born in Christ, begotten again.

I also put the story of the prodigal son into this section: he is a member of the family when he decides to got to sin city, then he returns to his father...pretty straight forward. He was always a family member even when he was astray and no non-family members are mentioned as becoming family.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Peter calls Christians sheep in an allusion to the Jews being called sheep by Isaiah: 1 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have RETURNED to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
This is using the term "Christian" very loosely. The first ones called "Christians" were not in Jerusalem, but in Antioch in Syria (Acts 11:26). The believers of Christ in Jerusalem were called Jews or Israelites.
Well,TO RETURN, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray were at one time part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from His care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must involve some rebellion, and rebellion to GOD makes one a sinner. Therefore, it is normally obvious that Peter is writing to some apostatized (gone astray) Christians (people of the flock).
Again you make gross assumptions. Christians are not "people of the flock". The apostle Paul is OUR apostles today and he never once in all of his thirteen epistles calls members of the body of Christ "sheep". Neither does Paul, in all of his THIRTEEN epistles, ever call the body of Christ a "flock".
It is also normally apparent that what he was writing is intended for every new convert in every age since.
Again with the gross assumptions and ignoring details.

In Peter's epistles, he is writing to Israelites scattered into gentiles lands; just like James.
1Pe 1:1 KJV Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Why are they "strangers"? Because they are Israelites outside of Israel. They are in gentile lands.
I think that Peter bore added witness to this fact in 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ...which ... hath begotten us again unto a lively hope... Just when was the first time you were begotten by GOD?
Begotten US AGAIN ... Peter is talking about ISRAEL. The first time that Israel was"begotten" was when God brought them out of Egypt.
Exo 4:22 KJV And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
And when did you get unbegotten, so as to be able to be begotten again?
Since you misunderstand what Peter is saying, you continue to run off the rails.
 

ttruscott

Active member
Since you misunderstand what Peter is saying, you continue to run off the rails.
You have your eisegesis, I have mine. That yours contradicts mine is NOT PROOF that I am wrong...it is only support for your thinking that I am wrong. I have considered yours all my life and rejected it as leading to blasphemy. You may note that nowhere in the Bible is there any statement that can be construed to mean that our pre-conception existence is impossible or is blasphemous.

Yet many people see that the orthodox interpretation of our creation and fall paints YHWH in a bad light, proving HIM to be lying about HIS goodness and therefore they rightly reject it.
 
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Right Divider

Body part
You have your eisegesis, I have mine. That yours contradicts mine is NOT PROOF that I am wrong...it is only support for your thinking that I am wrong.
It's hilarious that you want to claim that this is a battle of opinions. You've shown your opinions; I've shown you Biblical FACTS.
I have considered yours all my life and rejected it as leading to blasphemy.
Nonsense.
You may note that nowhere in the Bible is there any statement that can be construed to mean that our pre-conception existence is impossible or is blasphemous.
I have no idea what you're even talking about.
Yet many people see that the orthodox interpretation of our creation and fall paints YHWH in a bad light, proving HIM to be lying about HIS goodness and therefore they rightly reject it.
Again, you seem to be babbling on about something, but I cannot even tell what.

God calls Israel His sheep. That is a FACT.

Paul never once calls the body of Christ sheep. That is a FACT.
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
Even we can stray away like lost sheep.

"I have strayed like a lost sheep. Seek your servant, for I have not forgotten your commands" (Ps. 119;176).
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
The only people that God called His sheep are those of the nation of Israel.
This is correct.

Actually, Hebrew authors seem to use consistent symbolism of animals for nations, from one end of the Bible to the other (and even in non-canonical books).

Sheep are Israel... Dogs are Canaanites... and so forth.

Next question - what animal typifies the NT church (if any)?
 

Right Divider

Body part
This is correct.

Actually, Hebrew authors seem to use consistent symbolism of animals for nations, from one end of the Bible to the other (and even in non-canonical books).

Sheep are Israel... Dogs are Canaanites... and so forth.

Next question - what animal typifies the NT church (if any)?
It's depends on what you mean by "NT church". The analogy for the body of Christ is a man.
1Co 12:14-27 KJV For the body is not one member, but many. (15) If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? (16) And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? (17) If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? (18) But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. (19) And if they were all one member, where were the body? (20) But now are they many members, yet but one body. (21) And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. (22) Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: (23) And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. (24) For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: (25) That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. (26) And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. (27) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Do you still not understand who God calls His sheep in the Bible?
Not to mention that the only time the apostle Paul refers to those who are "lost" it concerns only Israel.

"But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to those who are lost" 2 Cor 4:3
 
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