ECT Help needed. Best Rebuttals to Jews For Judaism

[Freedm]

Failure to rightly divide leads to just exactly this sort of confusion.

Instead of accusing people of being confused, while at the same time, laying claim to "the right way" to read scripture by your handle, perhaps you could explain why you think he's wrong. And please use scripture to support your position.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All things spoken by the patriarchs and prophets, have been fulfilled in His life, death, resurrection, and Person.

That's ridiculous! Let us look at the "land" promises of the LORD under the Davidic covenant:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

There has never been a time when the children of Israel were brought back to the land which the LORD gave to Jacob and were moved no more, unless that prophecy is being fulfilled right now. And there has never been a time when they were brought back to the land and were moved no more and the Israelites were not afflicted by their enemies because at this time they are being afflicted by their enemies. Therefore, we can understand that in the future these prophecies concerning Israel and the land will be fulfilled. After all, the LORD said that He would not alter the promises He made to David and He also said that He will not lie to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen one, I have sworn to David my servant...I will not take my love from him, nor will I ever betray my faithfulness. I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered. Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness-- and I will not lie to David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

The following prophecy speaks of the time when the promise the LORD made to David concerning the land and the Israelites living in peace will be fulfilled:

"They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever'" (Ezek.37:25-28).​

According to your ideas the LORD God lied to David.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your example is a parable, which speaks of the great white throne judgment and because it's a parable we should be careful not to take things too literally.

You refuse to take His words which I quoted in a " literal" manner because His words sink your ship. The Lord Jesus made it plain that it will not be until He returns to the earth that the kingdom will be near:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

Either way, when we inherit the new earth Jesus will sit on a throne, but not the king's throne. We know this because prior to inheriting the new earth Jesus hands over the kingdom to God the father. In other words, he abdicates his kingship.

That is not right. Here we see a prophecy where He is reigning as King over the earth:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth" (Jer.23:5).​

 

[Right Divider]

"coming in the clouds" is symbolic language that denotes power and authority. It's not literal.

There you go, waving your magic "it's not literal" wand again. And, at the same time, ignoring the vast majority of my post.

And you're the one that wants people to provide evidence for what they say? :ha:

 

[Right Divider]

There is only one people of God. O.T. Israel was a type of the N.T. church that is made up of individuals out of every nation that have been justified by faith in Jesus Christ.

Fantasy unsupported by scripture (unless you twist it into a pretzel... and you do).

He is King.

Indeed, but YET to sit on the throne of His father David.

He has ratified the New Covenant with His blood.

Yep... the new covenant between God and Israel (and not your fake Israel either).

All things spoken by the patriarchs and prophets, have been fulfilled in His life, death, resurrection, and Person.

Baloney... make a sandwich.

 

[Freedm]

That's ridiculous! Let us look at the "land" promises of the LORD under the Davidic covenant:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

There has never been a time when the children of Israel were brought back to the land which the LORD gave to Jacob and were moved no more, unless that prophecy is being fulfilled right now. And there has never been a time when they were brought back to the land and were moved no more and the Israelites were not afflicted by their enemies because at this time they are being afflicted by their enemies. Therefore, we can understand that in the future these prophecies concerning Israel and the land will be fulfilled. After all, the LORD said that He would not alter the promises He made to David and He also said that He will not lie to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen one, I have sworn to David my servant...I will not take my love from him, nor will I ever betray my faithfulness. I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered. Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness-- and I will not lie to David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

The following prophecy speaks of the time when the promise the LORD made to David concerning the land and the Israelites living in peace will be fulfilled:

"They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever'" (Ezek.37:25-28).​

According to your ideas the LORD God lied to David.

All of those promises refer to the new earth. That's the only time when God will put his sanctuary among them forever.

 

[Freedm]

There you go, waving your magic "it's not literal" wand again. And, at the same time, ignoring the vast majority of my post.

And you're the one that wants people to provide evidence for what they say? :ha:

Aren't you the one always going on about rightly dividing the word? I think you need to learn about symbolism. It will help you in your studies.

 

[Right Divider]

Aren't you the one always going on about rightly dividing the word? I think you need to learn about symbolism. It will help you in your studies.

I'm well aware of symbolism. I'm also well aware that you attempt to make things symbolic when they are not.

The Bible is mere putty in your hands.

 

[Freedm]

There you go, waving your magic "it's not literal" wand again. And, at the same time, ignoring the vast majority of my post.

And you're the one that wants people to provide evidence for what they say? :ha:

You're just much too quick to dismiss things you don't understand (or agree with).

Look at all these examples where scripture uses the visual of clouds (and weather in general) to paint a picture.

Psalm 97:2
Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.

Jeremiah 4:13-14
Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness , that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

Nahum 1:3
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Zephaniah 1:15-17
That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Revelation 10:1
Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

David described the time he cried to God when in trouble from his persecutors.

2 Samuel 22:7-14
In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears. Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind. And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies. Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice.

God came in judgment against his enemies! David said God came with darkness beneath His feet and thick clouds of the skies were like pavilions or tabernacles around Him. And He rode upon a cherub.

Did David physically see these things? Of course not! But David was inspired of God to describe God's judgment on his persecutors as a coming in clouds. This was a well-known picture of God in the minds of Old Testament adherents. It's figurative language designed to paint a picture. Not a literal picture, but as an analogy.

 

[Freedm]

The Bible is mere putty in your hands.

No, you are.

 

[Freedm]

That is not right. Here we see a prophecy where He is reigning as King over the earth:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth" (Jer.23:5).​

I don't see anything there that requires Jesus to be on the earth when he reigns.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All of those promises refer to the new earth. That's the only time when God will put his sanctuary among them forever.

All you prove is that you do not know anything about the "land" which the LORD gave to Jacob:

"They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived" (Ez.37:25).​

This is speaking about the earth as it is now, and not the "new earth."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't see anything there that requires Jesus to be on the earth when he reigns.

When a king is reigning his throne is in the midst of the area where He is reigning. The prophet Ezekiel says that the LORD brought him to the "land of Israel" (Ez.40:2) and was placed on a high mountain where he saw a structure like a city on the south. Then he was brought to a "temple" (41:1) and its "inner court" (43:5) where the LORD said the following to him:

"Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet. This is where I will live among the Israelites forever" (Ez.43:7).​

 

[Freedm]

All you prove is that you do not know anything about the "land" which the LORD gave to Jacob:

"They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived" (Ez.37:25).​

This is speaking about the earth as it is now, and not the "new earth."

And do you think God will put his sanctuary among the people on this old earth forever? This same old earth that will pass away? Exactly how does that work? How do you place an eternal sanctuary on an earth that is not eternal? Please explain that.

 

[Freedm]

When a king is reigning his throne is in the midst of the area where He is reigning. The prophet Ezekiel says that the LORD brought him to the "land of Israel" (Ez.40:2) and was placed on a high mountain where he saw a structure like a city on the south. Then he was brought to a "temple" (41:1) and its "inner court" (43:5) where the LORD said the following to him:

"Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet. This is where I will live among the Israelites forever" (Ez.43:7).​

Do you think Jesus requires a physical building from which to rule?

 

[Right Divider]

You're just much too quick to dismiss things you don't understand (or agree with).

I dismiss things that I do understand and also disagree with.

Look at all these examples where scripture uses the visual of clouds (and weather in general) to paint a picture.

Yes, indeed. Sometimes it's figurative. But that does not justify it in the case of Jesus' return.

Are you going to also tell me that Act 1 is also not literal? Was it also a figurative "Mount of Olives"?

Acts 1 says that a cloud received Jesus out of their sight. There is no reason to take that figuratively. It also says that He will return "in like manner as you have seen Him go". Also no reason to take that figuratively.

God came in judgment against his enemies! David said God came with darkness beneath His feet and thick clouds of the skies were like pavilions or tabernacles around Him. And He rode upon a cherub.

When Jesus ascended, His people were still under the rule of gentiles (the Romans). That's not much of a judgment.

Did David physically see these things? Of course not! But David was inspired of God to describe God's judgment on his persecutors as a coming in clouds. This was a well-known picture of God in the minds of Old Testament adherents. It's figurative language designed to paint a picture. Not a literal picture, but as an analogy.

Jesus did NOT say that those clouds were judgment. Though He certainly will judge upon His return.

You are, once again, forcing the scripture to conform to your ideas instead of letting it speak for itself.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And do you think God will put his sanctuary among the people on this old earth forever? This same old earth that will pass away? Exactly how does that work? How do you place an eternal sanctuary on an earth that is not eternal? Please explain that.

The Hebrew word 'owlam is translated "everlasting" and that word does not always refer to endless time. When that word is used as referring to the future, as at Jeremiah 32:40, then the meaning of that word is "defined by the nature of the thing itself": "It more often refers to 'future time,' in such a manner, that what is called 'terminus ad quem,' it is always defined by the nature of the thing itself" (Geseniu's Lexicon).

The context in which the word 'owlam is found determines the length of the "age" to which it refers. For instance, consider the following verse:

"And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever ('owlam)" (Ex.21:5-6).​

Here it is said that if a servant desires to stay with his master for the rest of his life then "he shall serve him for ever." By the context we can understand that the servant will not serve his master for eternity or for an endless amount of time but instead for the remainder of his life.

In order to illustrate this principle let us look at what is said in regard to the land that God gave to Jacob:

"And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwell...My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore (`owlam)" (Ez.37:25-28).

It is not possible that the Lord will shall be in the midst of them throughout eternity since the land which God gave Jacob is going to be destroyed at some time in the future:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved...Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Pet.3:10-11, 13).​

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest" (Heb.1:10-11).​

Of course that will not happen until after the Millennium is over and that kingdom is delivered up to the Father in the eternal state:

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power" (1 Cor.15:24).​

Now that I have answered you please tell me why anyone should believe that the land the LORD gave to Jacob is land that will be on the new earth and it is not land which is on the present earth:

"And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwell...My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore" (Ez.37:25-28).​

 

[George Affleck]

"coming in the clouds" is symbolic language that denotes power and authority. It's not literal.

Hey, it would be fun for you and I to have a personal message discussion about this. I see this as already having being fulfilled just after the tribulation of 70 AD because of the symbolic nature of the language.

Only if you have time. opcorn:

 

[7djengo7]

The thousand years is a symbolic term relating to an unspecified period of time.

But, the "unspecified period of time" you speak of is a period of time, no? And, being a period of time, what you call "an unspecified period of time" cannot but be some number of years in its extent, no?--even though you say you cannot specify what number it is. So, according to your view, it would seem that the number, 1,000, is to be thought a symbol for some number other than 1,000. Would you say that the number, 1,000, is to be thought a symbol for a number less than 1,000, or for a number greater than 1,000? Which?

Don't you know that Jesus currently reigns? He said all power and authority was given to him in heaven and on earth. (Matthew 28:18) No one can have all power and authority and not be king.

Would you say no one can have all power and authority and not be POTUS? Would you say that Jesus is POTUS? Would you say that Jesus currently reigns, as POTUS, from Washington, D.C.? Would you say that in, say, A.D. 1100, Jesus was reigning, as POTUS, from Washington, D.C.? How could Jesus, in A.D. 1100, have had all power and authority and not have been, in that day, POTUS, reigning from Washington, D.C.?

Therefore we know that the thousand years is now.

Don't you mean, "Therefore we know that [an unspecified period of time] is now"?

 

[7djengo7]

Nope... it's a thousand years just like it says.

Ah, come on, RD, you're taking it way too liter...uh, I mean, numerically--you're taking the number 1,000 way too numerically. After all, doesn't the Bible teach us that the number 1,000 could be symbolic of the number 1,001? Or of the number 999?