beameup
New member
The quote is from Paul: 1 Thessalonians 2:3-4.
Perhaps you should read all of 1 Thessalonians ch. 2.
He who will build the TEMPLE of the LORD will SIT and RULE on His THRONE - Zechariah
- Thread starter beameup
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Perhaps you should read all of 1 Thessalonians ch. 2.
marhig
Well-known member
There will be no natural temple built, we are the temple of the living God. Once we house the holy spirit, we become a living stone, and our foundation is the apostles and the prophets and our cornerstone is Christ. Each one of us who are born anew become alive in God and God and Christ dwell in us and we become another living stone in the temple of the living God by his grace and our mortar is his love which holds us together.
God has no need of a natural temple, natural buildings mean nothing to him. When the disciples stood in awe at the temple, you could see that the natural building meant nothing to Jesus, he said to them, don't you look upon these things, not one stone shall be left upon another, they shall all come down. He was busy building Gods true temple which is his people, his living church who worship God in spirit and in truth. God has no need for a dead stone building, he has his people who are living sacrifices sacrificing their lives every day to do the will of God.
We aren't to look at things like natural temples, our focus should be on God and doing his will, and bringing him to others and through Christ we build the living temple holy and acceptable to God!
1 Peter 2
To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God,and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 6
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1 Corinthians 3
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are
2 Corinthians 6
For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Ephesians 2
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord
turbosixx
New member
I guess I could have phrased by question better. Correct me if I'm wrong, I understand the temple to be the house of God. It is where the High Priest once a year approaches God and presents atonement for the peoples' sins in the Most Holy Place where God resides.
If I understand Paul correctly, God's Spirit resides in us and we are God's temple.
1 Cor. 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
2 Cor. 6:16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; And I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
I guess my question is, if we are God's temple and he dwells in us and Jesus is our High Priest and he approaches God and makes atonement for us, why would we need a physical temple?
Ben Masada
New member
"And the Lord shall give unto Jesus the Throne of his father David!" Well, thanks to the NT itself, Jesus has been ruled out from getting the Throne of David because he was not from the lineage of David for not being a biological son of Joseph who was the one from the Tribe of Judah. If you read Mat. 1:18, Jesus was made son of God without a biological father. So, he ended up a Jew, no doubt, because of his mother Mary, but a Jew without a Tribe in Israel. Serious moral complications right there because, Jews without a Tribe in Israel were by the thousands in the First Century as a result of rapes of the mothers by Roman soldiers according to Josephus in his book, "The Wars of the Jews."
beameup
New member
Prophet Nathan to King David:
A message from YHWH to David:
“When your days are fulfilled that you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up one of your descendants after you, who will be of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom. “He shall build for Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever. “I will be his father and he shall be My son; and I will not take My lovingkindness away from him, as I took it from him who was before you. “But I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever.” - 1 Chronicles 17:11-14
A message from YHWH to David:
“When your days are fulfilled that you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up one of your descendants after you, who will be of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom. “He shall build for Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever. “I will be his father and he shall be My son; and I will not take My lovingkindness away from him, as I took it from him who was before you. “But I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever.” - 1 Chronicles 17:11-14
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
So you think this is a messianic prophecy.
Let's look at it:
Did JC build the Temple of Y-H-W-H?
NO!
Did he rule on his throne?
NO!
Was he a priest?
NO!
So when you believe this is a messianic prophecy, then we have yet another messianic prophecy NOT fulfilled by JC.
Zech 6: "9 The word of the Lord came to me: 10 “Take silver and gold from the exiles Heldai, Tobijah and Jedaiah, who have arrived from Babylon. Go the same day to the house of Josiah son of Zephaniah. 11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jozadak.[d] 12 Tell him this is what Y-H-W-H Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of Y-H-W-H. 13 It is he who will build the temple of Y-H-W-H, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.’ 14 The crown will be given to Heldai, Tobijah, Jedaiah and Hen son of Zephaniah as a memorial in the temple of Y-H-W-H. 15 Those who are far away will come and help to build the temple of Y-H-W-H, and you will know that Y-H-W-H Almighty has sent me to you. This will happen if you diligently obey Y-H-W-H your God.”
As we can see now we see it in context, it speaks about the high priest Joshua son of Jozadak.
Did he build the Temple of God?
"So Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel and Jeshua the son of Jozadak rose up and began to build the house of God which is in Jerusalem;" Ezra 5:2
Yes he did.
Was he a priest?
He was the high priest.
So people who say this is not about Joshua son of Jozadak, are horribly wrong.
Disregard
beameup
New member
“Then say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts,
“Behold, a man whose name is Branch,
for He will branch out from where He is;
and He will build the temple of the LORD.
“Yes, it is He who will build the temple
of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor
and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be
a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace
will be between the two offices.”’
Zechariah 6:12-13 Remains yet unfulfilled;
KINGS "rule", not Priests
I'd get a refund from your "yeshiva" if I were you.
He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place
of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet,
where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever.
And the house of Israel will not again defile My Holy Name
Ezekiel 43:7a This MAN will be both King and Priest over Israel
“Behold, a man whose name is Branch,
for He will branch out from where He is;
and He will build the temple of the LORD.
“Yes, it is He who will build the temple
of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor
and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be
a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace
will be between the two offices.”’
Zechariah 6:12-13 Remains yet unfulfilled;
KINGS "rule", not Priests
I'd get a refund from your "yeshiva" if I were you.
He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place
of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet,
where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever.
And the house of Israel will not again defile My Holy Name
Ezekiel 43:7a This MAN will be both King and Priest over Israel
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Yes, we are there. Beameup admits that JC did NOT fulfil this supposedly messianic prophecy.
But, as I have shown above, the prophecy is fulfilled, just not by JC, but by Joshua son of Jozadak.
Just like all the other messianic prophecies, this one is NOT fulfilled by JC.
He just didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies, therefore he was not the messiah.
The weird part is that even pieces of text which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, like Isaiah 53, Zech 6, Gen 3:15, and whatever the Christians come up with, even those false "messianic prophecies", they are NOT fulfilled by their messiah.
So what they do is adding more proof that their supposed messiah was not the messiah.
How stupid can you get? When you're going to cheat, cheat well. Don't come up with fake messianic prophecies who are also not fulfilled by JC. Because that is total nonsense and wholly counter productive to what you are trying to accomplish.
But then again, when some people think that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, then you cannot demand too much common sense from them.
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
beameup
New member
A prophecy partially fulfilled or a prophecy "postponed" does not make it a prophecy that will never be fulfilled. How stupid can you get? :dunce:
As well, you are mute on the details of the Tanakh prophecies yet to be fulfilled. How dense can you get? :dunce:
1) A Man will sit on the Throne
2) YHWH will sit on the Throne
3) He will be BOTH Priest and King
4) He will rule FOREVER (eternally)
5) The Throne will be in the Temple
:readthis:
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
No it does not. But it DOES make it a prophecy NOT fulfilled by JC. It DOES make it an unfulfilled messianic prophecy. (if it is messianic to begin with)
People can get ENORMOUSLY stupid.
Stupid to the point that they say: 1 + 1 + 1 = 1.
So stupid that they believe that a carpenter who didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies, that he was the messiah.
So stupid that they start believing that that carpenter was a king, and a priest, and a lamb, and a tent, and a Temple, and many more absurd things.
He does it again. I just said:
And what does Beameup do? He brings another non-messianic piece of text, NOT fulfilled by JC, as "proof" that he was the messiah. How stupid can you get?
ENORMOUSLY stupid!
Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.
If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.
The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.
Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, about 2700 years ago. And therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.
Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternal Father", (or "the Father is eternal") the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.
Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".
Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.
Again a non-messianic prophecy, NOT fulfilled by JC, as "proof" that JC was the messiah.
beameup
New member
:blabla: :blabla: unintelligible babble :blabla: :blabla:
:mock: In other words, you have no "messianic expectations"... :mock: You have no coming "messiah" as he doesn't exist in your Tanakh. zero, zip, nada.
"Judaism" doesn't even exist, as you have no Temple and no "high priest" and no sacrifices. zero, zip, nada. :loser:
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
I see you cannot give any sensible counter-argument.
There are messianic prophecies in the Tanach, and when somebody fulfils them, then we know he is the messiah.
And when, like right now, the messianic prophecies are not yet fulfilled, then we know the messiah didn't come yet.
beameup
New member
Nonsense, Pinocchio. There are no "messianic prophecies" in the Tanakh that I haven't already posted and that you haven't already rejected. zero, zip, nada. :nono:
Bs'd
I am not here to take either side. I am not responsible for what others say about it, but I genuinely would like to know your take on what you expect from the Messiah per the Tanakh.
Your answer would mean much to me. In simple terms, what will let you know that the Messiah has come.?
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
If you post a messianic prophecy, then there are two possibilities: ONE, it is not a messianic prophecy, and TWO, it is a messianic prophecy, but it is not fulfilled.
All the real messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by your messiah.
And therefore he was not the messiah.
If you think different, just post an authentic messianic prophecy, fulfilled by JC.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
How will I know that the messiah has come? By the messianic prophecies being fulfilled.
Here are some messianic prophecies, all of 'm NOT fulfilled:
Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."
Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."
They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.
Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD is our righteousness."
When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.
.
Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.
B'sd
I have no desire to change you. I sincerely thank you! Those are beautiful scriptures!!! They mean much to me coming from your perspective and citing of them!!!
This is going to sound super ridiculous... but please... please... please... never trust Islam. I know this sounds stupid, but please hear me. The warring Messiah of Islam is a lie! Isa of Islam is a lie. Though he "may" come with false signs and wonders... do not ever profess Mohammed or Allah. I know that Allah is close to some Hebrew enunciations... but I mean this.
I know this sounds insane, but hear me.
I believe you and your beautiful Messianic scriptures as you have shared them. Waring Messiah for Israel and all! I am a Christian Zionist and I know that I am an odd fellow to you.
But please hear my words. Please forgive me for adding any extra babbling on my part...
What you have shared is more special to me than you will ever know...
May El-him forever bless, keep and prosper you and yours!
beameup
New member
There are no verses in the Tanakh concerning neo-Judaism's "messiah".
Although you claim that there have been three sub-"messiahs" already,
you have none left that meet "your specifications"... it's just a
two millennia old "pipe-dream" of post-70 A.D. Judaism.