ECT Hath God Cast Away His People?

[northwye]

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Romans 11: 1-5

Paul begins talking about the remnant in Romans 9: 27, where he quotes Isaiah 10: 22.

Then in Romans 11: 1-5 Paul begins this chapter by introducing the doctrine that it is this remnant of Old Covenant Israel who are elected by grace. The entire text of Romans 11: 1-5 is about this remnant of Old Covenant Israel. Romans 11: 3-4 brings up Elijah's saying to God that he, Elijah, is the only one left who is faithful to God in I Kings `19: `10, which God answers in I Kings 19: `18, saying God has seven thousand who have not bowed their knees to Baal, referring to the remnant. Then in Romans 11: 5 Paul says that a remnant of Old Covenant Israel was elected, with the implication being that the New Covenant was begun with this remnant.

Paul is not saying that the multitude of Old Covenant Israel was elected by grace to begin the New Covenant. If that were true, then Romans 11: 5 would contradict Romans 11: 1-2, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew."

You cannot pull Romans 11: 1-2 out of the entire text of Romans 11: 1-5 and say this supports the theology saying the multitude of Old Covenant Israel was elected by grace and that this multitude is still an elect people of God.

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." From Things To Come, 1965, By J. Dwight Pentecost.

Dispensaationalism-Chritian Zionism focuses upon the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, and insists that in Romans 11: 25-26 "all Israel" must refer to that multitude. In scripture it is the remnant of Old Covenant Israel which is elected, not the multitude. Jeremiah 18: 4-7 was fulfilled in that remnant of Romans 11: 1-5, and the "ye" in I Peter 2: 5, who are built up a spiritual house, are the remnant of Old Covenant Israel, along with the fulfillment of Hosea 2: 23 beginning in Acts 10 - the bringing in of non-Jews, as part of this remnant who are a spiritual house.

 

[Danoh]

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Romans 11: 1-5

Paul begins talking about the remnant in Romans 9: 27, where he quotes Isaiah 10: 22.

Then in Romans 11: 1-5 Paul begins this chapter by introducing the doctrine that it is this remnant of Old Covenant Israel who are elected by grace. The entire text of Romans 11: 1-5 is about this remnant of Old Covenant Israel. Romans 11: 3-4 brings up Elijah's saying to God that he, Elijah, is the only one left who is faithful to God in I Kings `19: `10, which God answers in I Kings 19: `8, saying God has seven thousand who have not bowed their knees to Baal, referring to the remnant. Then in Romans 11: 5 Paul says that a remnant of Old Covenant Israel was elected, with the implication being that the New Covenant was begun with this remnant.

Paul is not saying that the multitude of Old Covenant Israel was elected by grace to begin the New Covenant. If that were true, then Romans 11: 5 would contradict Romans 11: 1-2, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew."

You cannot pull Romans 11: 1-2 out of the entire text of Romans 11: 1-5 and say this supports the theology saying the multitude of Old Covenant Israel was elected by grace and that this multitude is still an elect people of God.

Dispensaationalism-Chritian Zionism focuses upon the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, and insists that in Romans 11: 25-26 "all Israel" must refer to that multitude. In scripture it is the remnant of Old Covenant Israel which is elected, not the multitude. Jeremiah 18: 4-7 was fulfilled in that remnant of Romans 11: 1-5, and the "ye" in I Peter 2: 5, who are built up a spiritual house, are the remnant of Old Covenant Israel, along with the fulfillment of Hosea 2: 23 beginning in Acts 10 - the bringing in of non-Jews, as part of this remnant who are a spiritual house.

You are severely confused.

The election of grace is referred to there as a remnant out of Unbelieving Israel who Believed, and as a result, chose to serve God rather than Baal.

How that as a result, God then chose them to serve that purpose He has for ISRAEL.

How that, as then, so now, in Paul's day.

How that despite the majority of Israel's Unbelief, some have chosen to obtain what God had sought for - in Paul's day; they chose to Believe on the Son.

That He was Who THEIR Prophets did say should come.

Paul's point being that just as in Elijah's day though it had seemed to Elijah as if ISRAEL had NOT obtained that which God had sought for IN THEM - Faith - BUT such had NOT been the case - SO TOO in Paul's day.

Paul will then go on not only to relate how THAT is NOT the case - how that God is NOT through with Israel - BUT THAT He has merely DELAYED HIS Purpose as to HIS PROPHESIED DECREES as to THEIR Election UNTO SERVICE (which is what election is about anyway) ONCE MORE.

That God is FIRST doing a work among INDIVIDUAL Jews and Gentiles.

After which, He WILL Return to Zion to FINISH His above as to Israel as HIS Servant - His election of grace within THAT nation.

Isaiah is crystal clear on this - that election is the issue of you choose God and He THEN elects TO choose you INTO the SERVICE for which He wants you to choose Him.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. Isaiah 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Isaiah 41:9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: Isaiah 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. Isaiah 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

The issue is who bowed their knee in service of faith to what particular election or calling to - to God's intended SERVICE or to Baal's.

And that issue was preceded by FAITH.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry,
the first thing there in Rom 11 is to realize that the quote is historic already. It was Isaiah's future, and Paul is saying these things have come to pass.

Then why did Paul place the following in "bold" in the future tense?:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

 

[steko]

Then why did Paul place the following in "bold" in the future tense?:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

Yeah, and 'shall' about saved, 'shall' about ending ungodliness, and 'shall' when the NC is made with redeemed Israel and their sins are taken away. All future, according to prophecy.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Zion means 'fortress' and was the fortress of the Jebusites which David conquered and then made his capital. The term gradually came to be synonymous with Jerusalem.

Sion is not Zion.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Mindless 1 was referring to his self-deluded notions about HEAVENLY Zion.

Not even close.:doh:

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Yeah, and 'shall' about saved, 'shall' about ending ungodliness, and 'shall' when the NC is made with redeemed Israel and their sins are taken away. All future, according to prophecy.

Already happened, is happening and will happen.

Hebrews 12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

[steko]

Sion is not Zion.

Though 'Sion' is used in reference to Mt Hermon, the word 'Zion' is used in Hebrew in Zech 9:9 and the word transliterated 'Sion' is used in Mt 21:5 to quote Zech 9:9.

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.

Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***.


So Sion is sometimes Zion.

More cross references could be cited.

 

[Danoh]

Though 'Sion' is used in reference to Mt Hermon, the word 'Zion' is used in Hebrew in Zech 9:9 and the word transliterated 'Sion' is used in Mt 21:5 to quote Zech 9:9.

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.

Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***.


So Sion is sometimes Zion.

More cross references could be cited.

Problem is, Mindless 1 is ever...cross-eyed :chuckle:

 

[steko]

Problem is, Mindless 1 is ever...cross-eyed :chuckle:

Seems to be.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Though 'Sion' is used in reference to Mt Hermon, the word 'Zion' is used in Hebrew in Zech 9:9 and the word transliterated 'Sion' is used in Mt 21:5 to quote Zech 9:9.

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.

Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***.


So Sion is sometimes Zion.

More cross references could be cited.

Is this your idea of a thorough study?

Clearly one of them is mistranslated.

Which one?

 

[Danoh]

Is this your idea of a thorough study?

Clearly one of them is mistranslated.

Which one?

Yeah, as in the many times it is translated "Sion" in the LXX, then in use in the 1st Century, and quoted from Matthew to Revelation.

Yeah, okay, Mindless 1, lol

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Yeah, as in the many times it is translated "Sion" in the LXX, then in use in the 1st Century, and quoted from Matthew to Revelation.

Yeah, okay, Mindless 1, lol

Thanks for clearing that up.:hammer:

 

[beloved57]

So that Israel which was cast away, it was not Gods people.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Too bad that LA never even attempted to prove that what I wrote is in error!

So what claim do you have to be one of Gods people?

 

[northwye]

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." From Things To Come, 1965, By J. Dwight Pentecost.

Dispensaationalism-Chritian Zionism focuses upon the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, and insists that in Romans 11: 25-26 "all Israel" must refer to that multitude. In scripture it is the remnant of Old Covenant Israel which is elected, not the multitude. Jeremiah 18: 4-7 was fulfilled in that remnant of Romans 11: 1-5, and the "ye" in I Peter 2: 5, who are built up a spiritual house, are the remnant of Old Covenant Israel, along with the fulfillment of Hosea 2: 23 beginning in Acts 10 - the bringing in of non-Jews, as part of this remnant who are a spiritual house.

Dispensationalism-Christian Zionism is interested in the multitude of Old Covenant Israel and claims this multitude exists now as an elect people of God, alongside the Church, contrary to a number of NT scriptures, such as John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5, Ephesians 4: 4, II Corinthians 3: 7-11 and Hebrews 10: 9, which plainly say there is one people of God and that the Old Covenant no longer exists.

Christian Zionism teaches another story or narrative, and is another Gospel (II Corinthians 11: 4, Galatians 1: 6-9).

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." II Peter 3: 14-17

Those who follow Christian Zionism's teaching that the multitude of Old Covenant Israel now exist as an elect people of God have been led astray by false prophets and have themselves become false prophets. See II Peter 2: 1-3: "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."

 

[Interplanner]

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." From Things To Come, 1965, By J. Dwight Pentecost.

Dispensaationalism-Chritian Zionism focuses upon the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, and insists that in Romans 11: 25-26 "all Israel" must refer to that multitude. In scripture it is the remnant of Old Covenant Israel which is elected, not the multitude. Jeremiah 18: 4-7 was fulfilled in that remnant of Romans 11: 1-5, and the "ye" in I Peter 2: 5, who are built up a spiritual house, are the remnant of Old Covenant Israel, along with the fulfillment of Hosea 2: 23 beginning in Acts 10 - the bringing in of non-Jews, as part of this remnant who are a spiritual house.

Dispensationalism-Christian Zionism is interested in the multitude of Old Covenant Israel and claims this multitude exists now as an elect people of God, alongside the Church, contrary to a number of NT scriptures, such as John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5, Ephesians 4: 4, II Corinthians 3: 7-11 and Hebrews 10: 9, which plainly say there is one people of God and that the Old Covenant no longer exists.

Christian Zionism teaches another story or narrative, and is another Gospel (II Corinthians 11: 4, Galatians 1: 6-9).

Righto. Pentecost even had the wrong reference for the expression 'things to come.' He meant 'Israel-in-its-land-again things to come.' Not.

 

[northwye]

Christian Zionism does not include the remnant of Israel in its theology. The quote by Pentecost shown above is the only quite I have by a Christian Zionist on the remnant, so I included it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So what claim do you have to be one of Gods people?

Why do you continue to ignore what I presented in my OP?

Obviously you have no answer to what I said in my initial post on this thread!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yeah, and 'shall' about saved, 'shall' about ending ungodliness, and 'shall' when the NC is made with redeemed Israel and their sins are taken away. All future, according to prophecy.

Yes, and this is just another thing which interplanner will just ignore!