Has All Been Fulfilled? Have Heaven and Earth Passed?

[clefty]

Your doctrine is wrong - you're living under OT laws

More like standing on them...like a sure foundation...

I don't have to keep them I want to...and even now more so in gratitude as in Him the curse of the law is defeated...destroyed...not the law itself

Sin remains as the Law remains to point it out and it will be the standard by which we will be called to at final judgement day...any debt discovered then will have been payed off by Him...is my prayer...

See...I believe we don't keep the Law...it keeps us...and close to Him.

Another reason I delight in His Law...

 

[Nihilo]

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Ran into one of these today:




and they always stumble over thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery, etc


because if the whole thing vanished away, then there's no longer a prohibition on killing, or stealing, or committing adultery, right?

The Catholic Church teaches God's law for us today, it is not the same as the OT law, but there is overlap, like the ones you mentioned.

 

[TweetyBird]

The Catholic Church teaches God's law for us today, it is not the same as the OT law, but there is overlap, like the ones you mentioned.

There was a change in the Law - and so it failed. God started over with a new Law. Of course there are similar commandments, but like a brand new car compared to an old car, one is not going to take parts out of the old that call them new even if they are similar. You still have a brand new steering wheel controlling a brand new car.

 

[jamie]

That is only partially true. Many unbelievers that do not know Christ keep the 10 commandments.

It's by God's Spirit that we worship in Spirit. Why do you think unbelievers have God's Spirit?

 

[Nihilo]

There was a change in the Law - and so it failed. God started over with a new Law. Of course there are similar commandments, but like a brand new car compared to an old car, one is not going to take parts out of the old that call them new even if they are similar. You still have a brand new steering wheel controlling a brand new car.

" . . . if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." Galatians 3:21 (KJV) God's law cannot and does not give life, and righteousness cannot be and is not by God's law.

 

[clefty]

" . . . if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." Galatians 3:21 (KJV) God's law cannot and does not give life, and righteousness cannot be and is not by God's law.

The job of the law was never to save but to 1) point out sin and b) point to the One who will do the saving

It's immutable as per the CCC but they ignore their own description of it...and make changes they claim they have the authority to make...

 

[TweetyBird]

More like standing on them...like a sure foundation...

I don't have to keep them I want to...and even now more so in gratitude as in Him the curse of the law is defeated...destroyed...not the law itself

Sin remains as the Law remains to point it out and it will be the standard by which we will be called to at final judgement day...any debt discovered then will have been payed off by Him...is my prayer...

See...I believe we don't keep the Law...it keeps us...and close to Him.

Another reason I delight in His Law...

Jesus is our sure foundation, not the Law of Moses.

Isaiah 28:16
therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

1 Peter 2
3 if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Eph 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Keeping the Law does not keep us close to God. Jesus in us keeps us close to the Lord. He has made His home in us.

 

[TweetyBird]

It's by God's Spirit that we worship in Spirit. Why do you think unbelievers have God's Spirit?

2 Cor 3
Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 how shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

 

[TweetyBird]

The job of the law was never to save but to 1) point out sin and b) point to the One who will do the saving

It's immutable as per the CCC but they ignore their own description of it...and make changes they claim they have the authority to make...

The Law of Moses and the 10 commandments fail on that account [to point out sin]. Do you know why?

 

[clefty]

Jesus is our sure foundation, not the Law of Moses.

Isaiah 28:16
therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

1 Peter 2
3 if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Eph 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Keeping the Law does not keep us close to God. Jesus in us keeps us close to the Lord. He has made His home in us.

I am reminded of the psalmist "Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; love and faithfulness go before you."

By design in the tabernacle...the Law was at the base of the mercy seat...


I did say "like standing"...I am aware of Who is the foundation...ironic though that He is Lord of the Sabbath...you do understand how the office of lordship works yes?

As in lord of London...it is London that gives authority to the office...lord of the rings means the rings give him power...same thing with the Sabbath...a memorial that authenticates He is Creator of all...

Imagine a lord without authority...a god without laws...much less God of all...lol

Anyways...nice texts and thanks for sharing...

But here ended the matter...Love Yah and keep His commandments...

The New Testament merely makes it possible...

 

[patrick jane]

The Law of Moses and the 10 commandments fail on that account [to point out sin]. Do you know why?

Tell him Tweety !!

 

[Nihilo]

The job of the law was never to save but to 1) point out sin and b) point to the One who will do the saving

Temple Judaism (now extinct) killed Jesus. The law of Moses was part of that. I agree that it was all about the Lord, as to why it was given in the first place.

It's immutable as per the CCC but they ignore their own description of it...and make changes they claim they have the authority to make...

I don't know what you're talking about here. Is "it" God's law, or Torah?

 

[clefty]

Temple Judaism (now extinct) killed Jesus.

ok

The law of Moses was part of that.

the killing part or being extinct or both?

I agree that it was all about the Lord, as to why it was given in the first place.

ok

I don't know what you're talking about here. Is "it" God's law, or Torah?

yes

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a1.htm

1956 The natural law, present in the heart of each man and established by reason, is universal in its precepts and its authority extends to all men. It expresses the dignity of the person and determines the basis for his fundamental rights and duties:

For there is a true law: right reason. It is in conformity with nature, is diffused among all men, and is immutable and eternal; its orders summon to duty; its prohibitions turn away from offense . . . . To replace it with a contrary law is a sacrilege; failure to apply even one of its provisions is forbidden; no one can abrogate it entirely.9

...

1958 The natural law is immutable and permanent throughout the variations of history;10 it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, it cannot be destroyed or removed from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies:

Theft is surely punished by your law, O Lord, and by the law that is written in the human heart, the law that iniquity itself does not efface.11

The diabolical irony...

 

[clefty]

ok

the killing part or being extinct or both?

ok

yes

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a1.htm

1956 The natural law, present in the heart of each man and established by reason, is universal in its precepts and its authority extends to all men. It expresses the dignity of the person and determines the basis for his fundamental rights and duties:

For there is a true law: right reason. It is in conformity with nature, is diffused among all men, and is immutable and eternal; its orders summon to duty; its prohibitions turn away from offense . . . . To replace it with a contrary law is a sacrilege; failure to apply even one of its provisions is forbidden; no one can abrogate it entirely.9

...

1958 The natural law is immutable and permanent throughout the variations of history;10 it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, it cannot be destroyed or removed from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies:

Theft is surely punished by your law, O Lord, and by the law that is written in the human heart, the law that iniquity itself does not efface.11

The diabolical irony...

And in between those two coming in at number 1957:

"Application of the natural law varies greatly; it can demand reflection that takes account of various conditions of life according to places, times, and circumstances. Nevertheless, in the diversity of cultures, the natural law remains as a rule that binds men among themselves and imposes on them, beyond the inevitable differences, common principles."

And we all know who determines their applications...for us...lol

 

[TweetyBird]

I am reminded of the psalmist "Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; love and faithfulness go before you."

By design in the tabernacle...the Law was at the base of the mercy seat...


I did say "like standing"...I am aware of Who is the foundation...ironic though that He is Lord of the Sabbath...you do understand how the office of lordship works yes?

As in lord of London...it is London that gives authority to the office...lord of the rings means the rings give him power...same thing with the Sabbath...a memorial that authenticates He is Creator of all...

Imagine a lord without authority...a god without laws...much less God of all...lol

Anyways...nice texts and thanks for sharing...

But here ended the matter...Love Yah and keep His commandments...

The New Testament merely makes it possible...

It's impossible to keep the Mosaic Law, which is why it was replaced. Fault was found with it. Do you know why?

 

[TweetyBird]

Tell him Tweety !!

People who depend on the 10 commandments to justify it as a means of righteousness and pointing to sin are deluding themselves. This is why: There is no belief in Jesus Christ taught in the 10 commandments. There is no love taught in the 10 commandments. There is no forgiveness taught in the 10 commandments. There is no faith taught in the 10 commandments. It totally fails the test of pointing out sin according to the Gospel/the New Covenant of Christ.

 

[jamie]

Fault was found with it.

Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Because finding fault with them...​

The fault was with the people, not the covenant.

 

[jamie]

People who depend on the 10 commandments to justify it as a means of righteousness and pointing to sin are deluding themselves. This is why: There is no belief in Jesus Christ taught in the 10 commandments. There is no love taught in the 10 commandments. There is no forgiveness taught in the 10 commandments. There is no faith taught in the 10 commandments. It totally fails the test of pointing out sin according to the Gospel/the New Covenant of Christ.

It was Christ who thundered the covenant to the Father's firstborn and today the covenant is only for the Father's spiritual firstborn.

 

[clefty]

Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Because finding fault with them...​

The fault was with the people, not the covenant.

Yup...

And a covenant is not just its Law...

The Law is only part of the covenant's terms...

Each covenant is dependent on the obedience of its terms...

 

[Wick Stick]

Have heaven and earth passed away?

Not literally.

Are you quite sure the original statement was entirely literal, though? From where I sit, it doesn't appear to be.