God learns

[WeberHome]

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The faithful is up to us.

If the fulfillment of your salvation depends upon your faithfulness instead of Christ's competence as a shepherd of the sheep given to him by his Father, then I can safely attest that you are currently on a road to hell; and you will remain on that road unless you enter the gate that Christ spoke of at John 10:9.

Your lack of trust in Christ's competence as a shepherd is appalling.

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[iouae]

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If the fulfillment of your salvation depends upon your faithfulness instead of Christ's competence as a shepherd of the sheep given to him by his Father, then I can safely attest that you are currently on a road to hell; and you will remain on that road unless you enter the gate that Christ spoke of at John 10:9.

Your lack of trust in Christ's competence as a shepherd is appalling.

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We have two options to explain why some are not saved.
1) Your way, where every one whom the Father gives Christ, Christ saves and that seems predestined. By your way some are just predestined to never have a chance. They are essentially props in the drama on earth.

2) My way, where all are called, some respond and believe on Christ, some continue believing on Christ till the day they die and are saved. I have absolutely no problem with the idea that I have to cooperate with God, not get offended, but I don't have the power to resurrect myself after death. So I have no problem with scriptures like "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling", while acknowledging that all my works cannot save me. God alone can. I don't earn salvation, it's always a gift God gives to His friends.

And because there is a large element of chance involved, God created more people (overbooked) so that if some don't want Him and salvation, others will. There are lots of parables to this effect, the seed on different grounds, the royal feast where those invited refuse to come, so they scour the hedges to fill the feast.

Ps. I wish religious folks would stop name calling. Especially when they interpret the scripture incorrectly, and then blame others for not having their same misinterpretation.

 

[patrick jane]

All creatures small and great, learn.
If something cannot learn, we would question its IQ.

Yet many insist that God cannot learn.
They say that God is a know-it-all.

But is this true?

Take for instance Gen 22:12
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

If God says "now I know" it means before God tested Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, God did not know whether Ab would go through with it or not.

If God learns, then many parts of scripture make greater sense.

For instance when God expresses regret at having created man before the flood, this is a genuine expression of regret that man has somehow disappointed God's expectation (which was that mankind would somehow have behaved better).

Genesis 6:6
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

I believe the paleontological record in the rock strata also shows God learning.

God wanted to make someone in His own image, after His likeness to join Him in eternity.
Of course He had the angels, but they were more like employees, and less like sons.

So He tried the australopithecines, but they did not cut it.
So next He tried Homo habilis. Still not good enough.
Next, Homo erectus. No good.
Next, the Neanderthals. Too good, bigger brains than ours, stronger than us. God decides to dumb the Neanderthals down a bit and make them weaker, and comes up with Homo sapiens.

Voila, Homo sapiens seems OK to God.
Yet after 1600 years, and with only three Homo sapiens saved (viz. Abel, Enoch, Noah) God pulls the plug on this variety of hominid which lives nearly 1000 years and shortens their lifespan to threescore and ten. He also restrains the "sons of God" or angels so that they cannot breed with Homo sapiens and pollute the bloodline after the flood.

So God tries choosing a people, and giving them the Old Covenant with its laws to keep them on the straight and narrow. But this is not very successful in producing nice people.

So God scraps this Old Covenant and comes up with a New and better one of writing His laws into their very being through Christ living in Homo sapiens. That really seems to work, and finally God is satisfied with His product.

Did God learn anything new about you today?

 

[iouae]

Did God learn anything new about you today?

Hi Patrick. I still like your one-liners.

I see your avatar keeps evolving.

 

[iouae]

Another proof that God learns is demonstrated when God uses His sense organs. We learn through information obtained by our senses.

2Ch 16:9
For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

The eyes of the LORD run to and fro because they are searching for those who's heart is perfect towards Him, so that He in turn can show himself strong on their behalf.

If God knew everything, He would not need eyes. Zech 4:10, Rev 1:4 and Rev 5:6 describe seven spirits as the eyes of God which run throughout the earth, informing God what's going on down here. Gaining information is learning.

Zec 4:10
For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth

 

[jsanford108]

I totally agree. Thanks for your comprehension skills.

What do you think. Does the Bible not go out of its way to portray God as being just like us?
Genesis 1:26 God makes us in His image.
Genesis 3:8 God walks in the garden and talks with them, seemingly as any Father might.
In Rev 22:4 we are told "And they shall see his face..."

I think you bring up excellent points.

I believe that all the biblical evidence for God, in relation to man, is vertical; but in a downward direction. Make sense? Rather than God being like us, we are like God. Yes, we are made in His image, but that doesn't bring him down to our level, rather it elevates us up to his.

Thus from Genesis to Revelation God comes across as a man, a Father, someone we can relate to because He is like us, just more powerful and without sin, and immortal.

Okay, so here I am going to make a point, so that I may reference back to it, as it is easily addressed by your posits further on in your reply.

God is immortal and without sin. We agree. By being without sin, he cannot contradict himself. So, if God throws a temper, deals out a punishment that is too severe, is that not sinful?

By being eternal, God must thus exist outside the temporal plane, as he cannot be restricted by time. Hence, the applied term of "eternal" being a sustained sense of constant "being." If God is eternal, then he would have all knowledge. Why is this? Well, he exists eternally, meaning forever was and forever is; infinite in existence. If one is infinitely in existence, then it only stands logically that one should possess all knowledge.

(I will touch on why this is not the Calvinist connotation of omnipotence)

Why should God not learn? What do you think, just from a philosophical point of view? When did God come to know "all". Is there such a thing as knowing all? Is there such a thing as "omnipotent"? Could God do anything, including destroy Himself? If He could, then He would not be immortal. And being dead, He would have zero power. I ask these questions which I consider dumb, but which Greek philosophers would love to discuss ad infinitum. I personally believe the term "omnipotent" is meaningless when applied to God, because even God clearly has limits, such as, he cannot lie.

I believe those who say God cannot learn have been brainwashed by the idea knows everything. How is this even logically possible for God to know everything to infinity. By definition, infinity goes on forever, so how could God know something which has no limit? And if we have free will indeed, then God does not even know what we will do, till we do it. And surely, this proves God learns?

Okay, so if God is eternal, then he must possess all knowledge because he would have infinite existence in the future/present/past. Now, does this mean that God knows every decision that you will ever make? That, I actually don't think is provable, nor even important.

We know, and agree, that humanity has free will. Thus, the Calvinist ideas of predestination must be false. The Calvinist connotations of omnipotence, being that God knows every decision you will make, would have to exist for their doctrine of predestination to be true. But if this was the case, that means that God would create people just to fill up Hell. Which, God cannot do since he is Good. Thus, God cannot predestine people to Hell. So, if God likewise knew every decision that a person makes, which inevitably leads them to Hell; God would be allowing a person to damn themselves, with no intervention on his part. This also cannot be possible since God is Good.

We would agree that God intervenes in life. We would agree that God is Eternal, Good, Truth, etc. So, if this is the case, God cannot learn, as he possesses all knowledge (eternal), he cannot predestine a person for hell (Good), and he intervenes, which means that he doesn't learn, as he already knows what is best.

To add one last point, you mentioned "And if we have free will indeed, then God does not even know what we will do, till we do it. And surely, this proves God learns?" To this, I would agree that, by God's allowance of free will, he may (or may not) know what we would do, but allows for us to choose. This would make ideas such as individual destiny being false. (Not saying there are not exceptions to the rule)

I believe the following two scriptures show God is not omnipotent, or omniscient, or omnipresent.


Gen 18:20
And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21
I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

If God were omnipresent, he would not have to "go down".
And if God were omniscient, he would already have known without having to go down. But He says "I WILL know".
And the above shows God learning, in this case whether Sodom was as bad as had been reported to Him.
This does not look like omnipotence, if God has to personally intervene to determine the truth of something as mundane as the sin of Sodom. Does He not have an earth-cam, or CCTV?

I wouldn't say that this passage disproves God's eternal presence or knowledge. As I said, I believe that modern connotations to words such as omnipotence and omnipresence are false. But, the general theologies of omnipresence and omnipotence must be true, as it relates solely to God. As I stated; if God is eternal, then he must possess all knowledge and presence, because he exists outside the temporal plane.

If you think I am wrong, please point out which claims, and expound upon why I am wrong. (I do not think I possess even half the answers about the attributes of God/Christ, so I always welcome the chance to grow in knowledge)

 

[iouae]

By being without sin, he cannot contradict himself. So, if God throws a temper, deals out a punishment that is too severe, is that not sinful?

Technically it is not sin, because sin is the transgression of the law, and God is the law. But there is plenty of evidence of God thinking He has gone too far at times, and He repents, meaning, learns and changes and moves on, exactly what He expects of us. Here are some cases of God repenting.

Exo 32:14
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

1Sa 15:35
And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

2Sa 24:16
And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

Jer 26:19
Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.

Amo 7:3
The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.

Amo 7:6
The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

By being eternal, God must thus exist outside the temporal plane, as he cannot be restricted by time. Hence, the applied term of "eternal" being a sustained sense of constant "being." If God is eternal, then he would have all knowledge. Why is this? Well, he exists eternally, meaning forever was and forever is; infinite in existence. If one is infinitely in existence, then it only stands logically that one should possess all knowledge.

I believe that this world with its 4 dimensions, is an exact copy of the spirit world which also seems to have 4D. If time is the 4th dimension here, and we don't have all/any knowledge of the future, and things occur serially, with past, present and future, then why would this not be exactly the same in the spirit realm?

Like you already pointed out, my default belief is that God is exactly like us, His world is exactly like ours, because the one is modelled on the other.

And there is much evidence that things occur serially in our glimpses of heaven (Ez 1, 10 Rev).
And God sits, has hands, with Christ at His right hand, occupies space. There is length, breadth, height and time in heaven. I think this idea of God existing outside time has no basis. A thousand years is as a day with Him, but a day is still time passing.

When Lucifer was created, there is a time before and after Lucifer, and this is before the universe came into being. And time passes till at some point in time, Lucifer thinks an evil thought, in spirit time. And spirits can be confined, so things are solid in the spirit realm too, for spirits.

 

[iouae]

We know, and agree, that humanity has free will. Thus, the Calvinist ideas of predestination must be false. The Calvinist connotations of omnipotence, being that God knows every decision you will make, would have to exist for their doctrine of predestination to be true. But if this was the case, that means that God would create people just to fill up Hell. Which, God cannot do since he is Good. Thus, God cannot predestine people to Hell. So, if God likewise knew every decision that a person makes, which inevitably leads them to Hell; God would be allowing a person to damn themselves, with no intervention on his part. This also cannot be possible since God is Good.

Well put.

God would have all men to be saved, not just a chosen few.

The parable of the seed on different ground has no indication of God choosing just a few.
If anything, it shows that life, circumstances, free will, Satan, others intervene to cause some to miss out on eternal life.

 

[jsanford108]

Technically it is not sin, because sin is the transgression of the law, and God is the law. But there is plenty of evidence of God thinking He has gone too far at times, and He repents, meaning, learns and changes and moves on, exactly what He expects of us. Here are some cases of God repenting.

I am not denying that there are verses that say God grieved, was angry, etc. But, would not God "going too far at times" be sinful? After all, crossing the line is where any emotion becomes a transgression, right?

I think that there is too much human emphasis on such verses, using our limited human natures and realities, and applying them to God.

I believe that this world with its 4 dimensions, is an exact copy of the spirit world which also seems to have 4D. If time is the 4th dimension here, and we don't have all/any knowledge of the future, and things occur serially, with past, present and future, then why would this not be exactly the same in the spirit realm?

Like you already pointed out, my default belief is that God is exactly like us, His world is exactly like ours, because the one is modelled on the other.

And there is much evidence that things occur serially in our glimpses of heaven (Ez 1, 10 Rev).
And God sits, has hands, with Christ at His right hand, occupies space. There is length, breadth, height and time in heaven. I think this idea of God existing outside time has no basis. A thousand years is as a day with Him, but a day is still time passing.

When Lucifer was created, there is a time before and after Lucifer, and this is before the universe came into being. And time passes till at some point in time, Lucifer thinks an evil thought, in spirit time. And spirits can be confined, so things are solid in the spirit realm too, for spirits.

I think this part is getting far too into theory about dimensions/realms/whatever other term that people would like to use.

I agree that there is a different realm of reality and that the angels were created before our reality. But I do think that this is going into dimensional and string theory, more than necessary for discussing the topic of God's knowledge.

 

[iouae]

I am not denying that there are verses that say God grieved, was angry, etc. But, would not God "going too far at times" be sinful? After all, crossing the line is where any emotion becomes a transgression, right?

I agree that there is a different realm of reality and that the angels were created before our reality. But I do think that this is going into dimensional and string theory, more than necessary for discussing the topic of God's knowledge.

The very fact that God sees and hears proves that God takes in information, which we call learning.

Only the predestination crowd who are so befuddled and say God knows the future can deny that.
God would not need sense organs, nor claim to use them, if He already knew everything.

And the fact that God reacts emotionally proves that having learned, God acts on the spur of the emotion - or He is just play-acting (a hypocrite). And God hates play acting or hypocrisy.

Emotions add so much to our lives. Why should emotions not add to God's life.

God is a jealous God, His own words.
We always associate jealousy with being negative. Not God. God can be upset if we put anything before Him. What upsets God, is not good for us, by definition. So God is telling us not to upset Him and make things go not so well with us.

Christ told Satan, in Luk 4:12
And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

If God can be tempted, that implies He has a weakness. The "weakness" is He may be tempted to harm us, or not help us if we deliberately throw ourselves off a building.

Paul comes right out and says that God has weaknesses...
1Co 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

One could call God getting emotional and (over)reacting a "weakness".
But in the process it proves yet again, God learns, and reacts.