God does not have a Father

[Jerry Shugart]

God does not have a Father.

Here the Lord Jesus told the unbelievers that their father is the devil:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (Jn.8:44).​

Of course the devil was not their literal father. Instead, the Lord was using figurative language which all the Jews understood that the Lord was referring to their nature.

And when the Lord Jesus used the same figurative language when He said that God was His Father He was telling the Jews that his nature is that of God. And that is exactly what the Jews understood Him to be saying (Jn.5:28). And if the Lord Jesus was not God then He would have immediately corrected them. But He did no such thing but instead told them the following which would have made them certain that He was claiming to be God:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (Jn.5:23).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Save your scare tactics for yourself.

So do you really think that there are two beings who are described as being the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last?

You've been warned and unless you repent you will die in your sins!

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

So do you really think that there are two beings who are described as being the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last?

You've been warned and unless you repent you will die in your sins!

Define beginning smart guy.

 

[Jacob]

Here the Lord Jesus told the unbelievers that their father is the devil:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (Jn.8:44).​

Of course the devil was not their literal father. Instead, the Lord was using figurative language which all the Jews understood that the Lord was referring to their nature.

And when the Lord Jesus used the same figurative language when He said that God was His Father He was telling the Jews that his nature is that of God. And that is exactly what the Jews understood Him to be saying (Jn.5:28). And if the Lord Jesus was not God then He would have immediately corrected them. But He did no such thing but instead told them the following which would have made them certain that He was claiming to be God:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (Jn.5:23).​

I agree that devil is no one's creator. There is one Creator, God. Jesus is the Son. Your verse identifies the Father and the Son. I do not see it saying that Jesus is God.

 

[Tigger 2]

"The Lord Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last (Rev.22:12-13) and since only God is described that way (Rev.21:6-7) then we can know that the Lord Jesus is God."

........................

Even if Alpha and Omega is truly used for God alone (as it may be), Rev. 22:12-13 does not prove your point.

Is it clear in Rev. 22 that the speaker of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak? Some Bibles indicate this. But other highly respected trinitarian translations do not!

The ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version; TEV; and WE show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John’s words. (The Jerusalem Bible; the NJB; and Moffatt show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.) Then they show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you must insist that the person speaking before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version, TEV; and WE , you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

Mod edit: Please do not use large fonts and odd formatting. Leave the formatting alone please. It can cause problems with loading the thread on some browsers.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Define beginning smart guy.

Whatever its meaning it is in regard to God and God alone:

"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:6-7).​

Here are the words of the Lord Jesus:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

You can't say that you haven't been warned!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Even if Alpha and Omega is truly used for God alone (as it may be), Rev. 22:12-13 does not prove your point.

Is it clear in Rev. 22 that the speaker of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak? Some Bibles indicate this. But other highly respected trinitarian translations do not!

Again, here are the words of the Lord Jesus:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

It is a fact that John certainly understood that the one speaking those words was the Lord Jesus, as witnessed by what he said in reply:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).

 

[Tigger 2]

Again, here are the words of the Lord Jesus:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

It is a fact that John certainly understood that the one speaking those words was the Lord Jesus, as witnessed by what he said in reply:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).

...............................

Excuse my ignorance about italic and bold usage.

Why have you ignored all the evidence concerning the probable error of assuming Jesus wrote the words before Rev, 22:16.

The ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version; TEV; and WE show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John’s words. (The Jerusalem Bible; the NJB; and Moffatt show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.) Then they show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you must insist that the person speaking before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version, TEV; and WE , you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

A single example would be the NASB which says at Rev. 22:

12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man [g]according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Not only does "I, Jesus" indicate a new speaker, but the quotation marks for verse 12 end at the end of verse 13. So the words in verses 14 and 15 are not quotes and therefore are John's words. Then the words in verse 16 are Jesus' words: beginning quotation marks and end quotation marks.

Small type and lack of italics/bolding make it difficult for me. How does one show emphasis without them?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why have you ignored all the evidence concerning the probable error of assuming Jesus wrote the words before Rev, 22:16.

I assumed nothing. What John said at Revelation 22:20 establishes beyond any doubt that the speaker at Revelation 22:12-13 is the Lord Jesus!

Or perhaps you think John was wrong?

 

[Tigger 2]

O.K., let's look at it:

NASB - Rev. 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. [No quotation marks indicate that John is writing.]

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” [Beginning and end quotes here show where Jesus begins and ends speaking.]

17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. [John is writing 17-19]

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. [John is writing, but quotes Jesus ["yes, I am coming quickly."] and ends with his own words [Amen. Come, Lord Jesus].

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

There is no reason to insist that the speaker of Rev. 22:16 spoke at Rev. 22:12, 13 and the NASB (and all the other Bibles I cited) show the same.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is no reason to insist that the speaker of Rev. 22:16 spoke at Rev. 22:12, 13 and the NASB (and all the other Bibles I cited) show the same.

The speaker at Revelation 22:12-13 says, "Ï come quickly."

And what John said later makes it plain that the speaker is Jesus Christ:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

The one who said "I come quickly" at verse 12 is the one to whom John says, "come, Lord Jesus."

It is the Lord Jesus who is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, and that means that the Lord Jesus is God:

"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:6-7).​

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Whatever its meaning it is in regard to God and God alone:

"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:6-7).​

Here are the words of the Lord Jesus:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

You can't say that you haven't been warned!

Thanks for your concern.

But I'm sure I have nothing to fear in believing Jesus is God's son.

If there's something more he wants me to know he will show me in due time.

That being said, work out your own salvation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But I'm sure I have nothing to fear in believing Jesus is God's son.

You have nothing to fear if you understand that the phrase "Son of God" speaks of the Lord Jesus' nature as being God.

When the Apostle Paul denounced Elymas the sorcerer as "Thou son of the devil" (Acts 13:10) the Jews would have understand his words as describing the man's character and nature. And when the Jews heard the Lord Jesus refer to Himself as the Son of God they understood that He was claiming that His nature was that of God (Jn.10:33-36).

 

[Tigger 2]

You have nothing to fear if you understand that the phrase "Son of God" speaks of the Lord Jesus' nature as being God.

When the Apostle Paul denounced Elymas the sorcerer as "Thou son of the devil" (Acts 13:10) the Jews would have understand his words as describing the man's character and nature. And when the Jews heard the Lord Jesus refer to Himself as the Son of God they understood that He was claiming that His nature was that of God (Jn.10:33-36).

Even if you are correct about 'character and nature' that still does not make Elymas ('a son of the devil') the Devil or even equal to the Devil. He may have some characteristic of the Devil, but he is in no way equal to the Devil! - compare John 8:44.

In the same way, understanding those called 'sons of God' or 'the son of God,' certainly does not make them God or equally God!! - compare Luke 3:38; Job 38:7; Ps. 89:6; Matt. 5:9.

 

[meshak]

You have nothing to fear if you understand that the phrase "Son of God" speaks of the Lord Jesus' nature as being God.

I don't have anything to fear believing Jesus is Son of God without changing to God the Son.

You are correcting Jesus' own word.

what a concept.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Even if you are correct about 'character and nature' that still does not make Elymas ('a son of the devil') the Devil or even equal to the Devil. He may have some characteristic of the Devil, but he is in no way equal to the Devil! - compare John 8:44.

I like that translation.

We know that Jesus did not speak from his own resources.:idea:

 

[meshak]

I like that translation.

We know that Jesus did not speak from his own resources.:idea:

His resources are His Father's word.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

His resources are His Father's word.

:thumb:

John 12:49 (ASV) For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

 

[oatmeal]

You have nothing to fear if you understand that the phrase "Son of God" speaks of the Lord Jesus' nature as being God.

When the Apostle Paul denounced Elymas the sorcerer as "Thou son of the devil" (Acts 13:10) the Jews would have understand his words as describing the man's character and nature. And when the Jews heard the Lord Jesus refer to Himself as the Son of God they understood that He was claiming that His nature was that of God (Jn.10:33-36).

Elymas was no more the Devil himself or a third of a triune Devil, than Jesus is God himself or part of a triune god

 

[oatmeal]

The speaker at Revelation 22:12-13 says, "Ï come quickly."

And what John said later makes it plain that the speaker is Jesus Christ:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

The one who said "I come quickly" at verse 12 is the one to whom John says, "come, Lord Jesus."

It is the Lord Jesus who is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, and that means that the Lord Jesus is God:

"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:6-7).​

God is everywhere present.

God is already everywhere.

He does not have to go anywhere to be at any place.

Jesus Christ however, does have to go somewhere to be at that somewhere because Jesus Christ is not everywhere present, or else he would already be there, thus not needing to announce, "I come quickly"

John understood that, why can't you?

Jesus Christ and God both claim to be the alpha and the omega

Jesus Christ was in his Father's business.

God is in the alpha and omega business, and the son of God follows in his Father's footsteps like a good son would

Jesus Christ made sure no one snatched those with eternal life away, just like his father. see the context of John 10:30 They are one in purpose, not one in identity.

To say that Jesus and the Father are one in identity is to state that Jesus is the Father and the Father is Jesus, thus if you claim to be a trinitarian you just lost one of your three gods, for two of them are identical, they are the same person, if your interpretation of John 10:30 is to be believed instead of simply being mouthed

As for Rev 21:6-7, who is the person that overcame ?

It is Jesus Christ that overcame.

Jesus Christ is the son of God, God is Jesus' God and Jesus is the son of God.