Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Francisco
The Catholic Church has more charismatics than all the others combined.

Here is a perfect description of the charismatics of the Roman church:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"(Mt.7:22,23).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Here is a perfect description of the charismatics of the Roman church:

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry you asked me, not too long ago, this:

Are you aware of any of the early writings that mention sign gifts?

I then proceeded to provide you evidence thereof. Do you now acknowledge that the early church employed the gift of miracles?

Now, in regards to your most recent post...

Do you understand that Charismatics, generally speaking, embrace the essentials of the Christian faith?

 

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Here is a perfect description of the charismatics of the Roman church:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"(Mt.7:22,23).

In His grace,--Jerry

What arrogance! Look at the preceding verse which Jerry does not have the intellectual honesty to include -- that those will be welcomed who have done the Will of the Father. We have no mention from Christ that some Easy Faith Alone Salvation will someday be provided by one of the Pharisees who will have Him murdered. Christ tells us that Salvation will come of Works. This is a Doctrine that Rome has no problem with. It is only the Protestants who think they may go to Heaven by simply whining and crying the name of "Christ"

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Here is a perfect description of the charismatics of the Roman church:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"(Mt.7:22,23).

In His grace,--Jerry

Applies to some, but not all (simplistic generalization made out of ignorance...study the history of charismatics...yes they need sound teaching, but to attribute the move of the Spirit to Satan or the flesh is grieving and quenching the Spirit).

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Leo Volont

What arrogance! Look at the preceding verse which Jerry does not have the intellectual honesty to include -- that those will be welcomed who have done the Will of the Father. We have no mention from Christ that some Easy Faith Alone Salvation will someday be provided by one of the Pharisees who will have Him murdered. Christ tells us that Salvation will come of Works. This is a Doctrine that Rome has no problem with. It is only the Protestants who think they may go to Heaven by simply whining and crying the name of "Christ"

Evangelicals are or should be against 'easy believism'. Repentance, faith, love, and obedience require radical changes in ultimate (live for God vs Self) and subordinate choices (moral law of God= holiness; character). Genuine faith will produce works, but this should not be confused with works being a condition or ground of salvation.

 

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by godrulz

Evangelicals are or should be against 'easy believism'. Repentance, faith, love, and obedience require radical changes in ultimate (live for God vs Self) and subordinate choices (moral law of God= holiness; character). Genuine faith will produce works, but this should not be confused with works being a condition or ground of salvation.

There seems to be Protestants who need to apologize for their Morality... who are embarrassed by their good works. Does this not give you some hint of the wickedness of Paul, that you must sneak around for goodness, and do your Righteousness in secret. If your Master was not Satan, surely you could be open in your Sanctity. But you seem to fear Punishments for your virtues. Just as Paul instructed. "Your Good Works will be held as debts against you".

You know, by feeling the necessity of Righteousness, you admit the Masterhood of Christ. So why pretend to serve Two Masters any longer? Especially if you are a Protestant -- be the first Protestant Sect to declare the Truth -- that Paul is the Antichrist, and that there no longer has to be shame in Good Works, and that Good Christians are bound by the Moral Teachings of Jesus. Well, after that, you are an inch from the Catholic Church anyway...

 

[godrulz]

The Catholic Church accepts Pauline doctrine (though misinterpreting it at times). You must be part of an unofficial offshoot/sect of the Catholic Church led by the Pope (if you reject Paul's apostleship as the antichrist?!).

There is a reason the Protestants protested. It was a desire to return to biblical vs papal authority.

The grounds of salvation (reason for which) are grace and the death/resurrection of Christ.

The conditions of salvation (not without which) are repentance, faith (knowledge, love, obedience, trust), and perseverance/continuance to the end (abide).

Faith (heaven) or unbelief (hell/lake of fire) determines one's destiny. This is a heart issue before God.

Works determine degree of reward or loss of reward. The externals are evidence before men and should reflect the state of the heart that God sees. Virtue will be rewarded and vice will be punished. Works are not salvific, but flow out of faith or unbelief. Motive is the key since external works are only meritorious if done for a motive of loving and glorifying God. The identical work from a selfish motive is rubbish. Only God discerns the motive and heart.

e.g. The Pharisees prayed, tithed, and followed the Word/Law but were far from God.

 

[Freak]

Gentleman, please stay on topic. Thanks.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Freak
Do you understand that Charismatics, generally speaking, embrace the essentials of the Christian faith?

Freak,

I can see that you have a very good understanding of the essentials of the Christian faith.And thank you for your quotes from those in the early church.However,I remained convinced that at this time there s only "one baptism",and that baptism is not the one performed by the Lord Jesus with the Spirit whereby men receive the sign gifts.

I also remain convinced that the author of Hebrews told the Christians to leave behind the laying on of hands that at one time was in reference to the sign gifts.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

I can see that you have a very good understanding of the essentials of the Christian faith.

I do appreciate the kind words, Jerry. Having graduated from a theological school that is biblically sound helps (I graduated from Criswell College--a conservative Southern Baptist school in Dallas). It also helps I attend a very orthodox, theologically speaking, Anglican Fellowship.

And thank you for your quotes from those in the early church.

The evidence found in the Scriptural record and in early church history speaks in our favor.

However,I remained convinced that at this time there s only "one baptism",and that baptism is not the one performed by the Lord Jesus with the Spirit whereby men receive the sign gifts.

Though I believe your theology, in this area is flawed, I acknowledge that this issue is an non-essential among the Body.

I also remain convinced that the author of Hebrews told the Christians to leave behind the laying on of hands that at one time was in reference to the sign gifts.

In His grace,--Jerry

Flawed but some believers do hold unto this idea.

On a side note: Jerry, you and I agree on many issues and you have done an outstanding job in defending the essentials of the historic faith on this forum. I pray, however, that your eyes would be opened to the truth of miracles among the Body. Blessings.

 

[LightSon]

Freak,
Thank you delineating your differnences with Jerry in a fair-minded, congenial fashion.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by LightSon

Freak,
Thank you delineating your differnences with Jerry in a fair-minded, congenial fashion.

:up:

 

[godrulz]

National Post (Canadian national paper) August 19,2004

"Man credits prayer for saving life: doctors unable to explain full recovery after non-survivable situation"


- 19 year old Li Peng near death after drowning= brain dead 7 days...expected death or vegetative state (Dr. Meakes).

- father flew in from China...did not speak English...Ms. Chow, who knew the patient from university, thought of a pastor at a Chinese Pentecostal Church she used to attend who knew Mandarin. "But he is a man of the church, a Christian. Would you be comfortable with that?"

- pastor and wife prayed after saying "You might not know who God is, or who Jesus is, but I believe- I trust- that God can do somehting. It's not me. I just came to pray for your son."

- whispered in patient's ear'; next morning mentioned plight to University group studying Christianity (mandarin). Evangelist joined them, anointed patient with oil, prayed.

- That night Li opened his eyes for first time since drowning...defied medicine, regained consciousness, recovered ability to sit, write, read, speak.

- Dr. "We have no natural way of being able to understand why Li gained what he did."

- Vital signs were deteriorating UNTIL a group of strangers prayed for him. "And in the time that he was prayed for, this patient made a major demonstrable change in condition."

- Li has since been baptized as a new believer and does not remember the drowning. He lives with the pastor and plans to attend university. "I believe in God, I believe Jesus saved my life."


This verifiable historical event is consistent with the biblical message. Miracles still happen and they do not always lead to unbelief. One can rationalize this away (some comas do recover without God), or rejoice and give God glory for His demonstration of love and power that led to the salvation of an atheist (?) and who knows how many others. I unapologetically chose to worship God, instead of succumb to a Western mindset that limits God. This is not an isolated incident. I was at a healing meeting this month and saw a 14 year old girl abandon her leg braces for spastic cerebral palsy and run across the stage with her mother. The evangelist did not touch or pray for her. God supernaturally moved and healed her out in the crowd (cf. the ministry of Jesus).

The Gospels and Acts continues into the Church Age until Jesus returns. Having the written Word does not preclude the Living Word from moving in our generation.

 

[Yorzhik]

I was looking for the story in the Post, but I received this:

Results for your search for "Li Peng" for the last 7 days from the National Post.

0 to 0 results out of 0

and this:

Results for your search for "Meakes" for the last 7 days from the National Post.

0 to 0 results out of 0

Maybe it's paper only? Do you have more information on the source?

 

[godrulz]

I presume it must be hard copy only vs internet. One could probably track down the pastor of the Mandarin Chinese church in Victoria, B.C., Canada to verify. Dr. Meakes is also registered in that city with Canadian Medical Association (he reported facts and gave his own opinion, but would not necessarily give glory to God if he is an unbeliever). It is likely the only one (or call other Pentecostal churches). I imagine it was a newswire story or National Post (credible, conservative paper similar to Globe and Mail or New York Times, etc. in scope).

The picture with the story shows Li being water baptized. Christians around the world often see God confirm His Word with signs following, resulting in a harvest of souls (including whole villages in the face of the impotence of the 'witch doctors' who could not heal and deliver). Europe, the cradle of Christianity, is far from God and now needs third world missionaries to come to it. North America is a 'reached' area that has become self-sufficient. Perhaps we do not see the power of God as often because of our indifference to the things of God, our Western scientific world view, prayerlessness, compromise, and rationalization and unbelief in God and His Word.

 

[1Way]

It just shows once again how terribly false Christian beliefs are today, and how Christians are willing to lie (or believe a lie) in order to support their false claims.

 

[1Way]

godrulz

From you post 647. This sort of text is my added comments..

• (godrulz said)
  The Catholic Church accepts Pauline doctrine (though misinterpreting it at times). You must be part of an unofficial offshoot/sect of the Catholic Church led by the Pope (if you reject Paul's apostleship as the antichrist?!).
  
  Problems at several levels
  1 - The Catholic Church mixes law and grace, Petrian and Pauline apostleship and thus doctrine, thus they violate both, they do not accept Pauline doctrine just as most of the church violates it as well.
  
  2 - Precept 1 - Caltholic dogma accepts Pauline doctrine. (Which is rubbish)
  Precept 2 - You must be part of the Catholic Church (offshoot/sect) led by the Pope.
  
  Precept 2 openly violates precept 1 in the most dramatic way. The claim in precept 1 that they accept Pauline doctrine is absurd in the clearest sense, so I have no idea why you purport such a thing.
  
  3 - The parenthetical comment is unclear and confusing at best, and also it makes no meaningful connection to what was just said. Specifically what does "the antichrist" have to do with anything just mentioned? Frankly, the question doesn't make any sense despite the apparent fact that the design was to complete or tie up some loose end and help things make sense.
  
  There is a reason the Protestants protested. It was a desire to return to biblical vs papal authority.
  
  The grounds of salvation (reason for which) are grace and the death/resurrection of Christ.
  
  The conditions of salvation (not without which) are repentance, faith (knowledge, love, obedience, trust), and perseverance/continuance to the end (abide).
  
  Depending upon if that was your view or not, please stand corrected in your dictate as to the nature of salvation which is in error. Our perseverance/continuance to the end (abide) is not a requirement for salvation today. Our faithfulness is not a requirement for salvation, it's Christ's faithfulness that saves us, not ours.
  
  "If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself." --- God through Paul
  
  Faith (heaven) or unbelief (hell/lake of fire) determines one's destiny. This is a heart issue before God.
  
  Works determine degree of reward or loss of reward. The externals are evidence before men and should reflect the state of the heart that God sees. Virtue will be rewarded and vice will be punished. Works are not salvific, but flow out of faith or unbelief. Motive is the key since external works are only meritorious if done for a motive of loving and glorifying God. The identical work from a selfish motive is rubbish. Only God discerns the motive and heart.
  
  Yet for some reason, God thought it wise to teach men to judge one another, including and sometimes emphasizing issues of the heart.
  
  e.g. The Pharisees prayed, tithed, and followed the Word/Law but were far from God.
  
  Example, love is an issue of the heart, same with caring and forgiveness and so on. But Jesus said to the one who judged the heart of another, "you have rightly judged." Luke 7:43. Jesus then immediately continued to teach mere men about this judgment of the heart, a lesson that I for one can easily understand and apply in my own life.
  
  Do you have a problem accepting Jesus's teaching about men rightly judging another man's heart? If so, I pray for you to learn to accept the teachings of Jesus to rightly judge the inward things, and not the outward appearance. John 7:24, Luke 11:39, 2Co 4:16

You seem to have a problem mixing other's thoughts in with your own instead of distinguishing what distinct parties you are trying to represent. Perhaps you know who said and thought what, but I can't tell from your post where these divisions are supposed to happen.

Consider the source...

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by 1Way

It just shows once again how terribly false Christian beliefs are today, and how Christians are willing to lie (or believe a lie) in order to support their false claims.

"We hold a few texts so near the eyes that they hide the rest of the Bible." - William Butler

"The Plot" contends that miracles do not happen today and they lead to unbelief. You whine that there are no examples of the opposite today. When you get one, you rob God of the glory and show more skepticism than Zakath?!:doh:

It shows how blinding preconceived theologies are to negate the Word and the work of the Spirit. Do not quench or grieve the Spirit by attributing these works to Satan or false journalism.

"Don't confuse me with the FACTS, my mind is already made up.":nono:

You can side with the atheists. I will know my God and do exploits in His name like Daniel did for the glory of God and to confound the 'wisdom' of the world and unbelieving Church. Dispensationalism is not always biblical.:ha:

 

[1Way]

godrulz

• Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool [is] right in his own eyes,
  But he who heeds counsel [is] wise.
  
  Proverbs 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes?
  [There is] more hope for a fool than for him. --- God

I believe your story is a hoax. I suggest that it will not be verifiable on account of several things.

I took some time and looked up some things on the internet. It seems that it's a practice that once you are determined to be brain dead, and that determination is rigorously tested to make sure there is no mistake, they stop life support after 5 hours because there is no hope for even regaining to a comatose state at that point.

There are several ways to know if your brain is dead, that is, it has stopped functioning. EEG, chemical, and radioactive tests. EEG for electrical signals from brain functions, chemical to cause a reaction in the brain to speed up heart rate that can not happen if the brain is dead, and radioactive blood flow to see if the brain is getting blood supply. Strangely, there was no mention of what sort of test they used.

But more strange is the report itself. Your report brazenly claims

• "This verifiable historical event is consistent with the biblical message. Miracles still happen and they do not always lead to unbelief."

"Verifiable"???

"Always lead to unbelief"???

1. First, even YOU did not site the actual source you got your info from. You stated that it came from that paper, but did you read it yourself and personally copy the info from the paper to this website, or did you copy this info from another source? Exactly what was your source? If you have the paper, then please make it available for further investigation.
   
2. There is mention that this Li Peng was a "patient". Which means about nothing. Where was he a patient? By the seriousness of the injury, it should have been in a most notable hospital or trauma center. And these places usually keep very clear records of their patients and the treatment as well... but for some (???) reason, no mention was even made. (???)
   
3. Dr. Meakes states that the "patient" was brain dead for 7 days, he expected him to die, or live a vegetative state. Yet from a brief internet scan, the timetable I read about was that after 5 hours of being brain dead (they have had enough time to sufficiently determine that you are positively brain dead), then they know that you can not return to a functioning life because your brain, which controls all your bodies functions, no longer functions, it is dead. The only way you can keep living is by life support machines without which you would promptly die. Apparently after 5 hours of being brain dead, they let you become what you already are, dead. Yet strangely there was no mention of "life support", or the extent that was required and for how long. (???)
   
4. The third bullet suddenly introduces a new character, a "wife", yet we are not told who this wife is.
   
5. Forth bullet says, "whispered in patient's ear", and then proceeds to not say
   
   what was said,
   
   who said it,
   
   or why this mention was supposed to mean something. (???) ("Very" godrulzish)
   
6. Although the story does imply a very full recovery because he plans on attending a university, the only mention of any long term effects was that he does not remember the drowning. It would be helpful to state his diagnosis and ongoing health condition as a result of his stay at someone's care.
   
7. They usually don't list the medical emergency facts only stories in the paper along with a religious spin. I don't care how conservative or reliable the paper, the fact that they had a picture of him getting his baptism in a church shows quite conclusively that this story was an editorial piece, and as such, is subject to artistic license and what sells and what does not sell.

Did you make up this story?

You are very quick to judge against believers in Jesus Christ who have a healthy dose of skepticism against false claims. But, when it comes to bible study on the subject of God doing miracles today, you "come up short" and you present false accusations against those who agree with what the Plot teaches. And we really don't care what "The Plot" teaches, we care about what the bible teaches and simply try to reflect and teach that!

The Plot does not invent it's own claims, it carefully observes that the BIBLE teaches that miracles should not be expected for today, and that they "overwhelmingly" do not tend to engender faith. Again the substance for these claims is the result of doing a massive bible study on the subject, recording the VERIFIABLE results wherever they are explained in the bible!

Please explain the bible's overwhelming testimony that faith is not what miracles tend to foster. And why is it that faith is fundamentally eliminated when you experience a miracle as reality? Does it take faith to know that I am typing this out on my computer??? Or does it take simple acknowledgement of the fact, something more like being "conscious" instead of "faith"?

:doh: That's right, faith is for things not seen, things hoped for but not yet realized. But who cares if God's word overwhelmingly dictates that miracles do not tend to produce faith...

Suddenly your all quiet on the biblical issues,,, hu,,, how convenient for you "miracles are for today" types. And as to attacking dispensationalism, that is about as bogus as could be. Was God wrong for teaching dispensationalism? I don't think so, I think you are wrong for generally attacking what God clearly promotes.

In spite of this biblical lacking, somehow you come up sufficiently prepared with (subjective non-verifiable) miraculous account(s). And when we say where's the verifiable evidence, you attack our(!!!) objectivity and credibility AND even judge against us that we do not give God the glory that He certainly deserves! You are one arrogant (and subjective) person.

You made the claims, you said it was "verifiable", so if you are to be understood as credible, we will be able to verify this. Please help us do that, or remain generally against the biblical record on this issue with nothing but fictitious unverifiable claims.

You still have the source for your story, ,,, don't you?

 

[godrulz]

I read the copy of the story in the National Post, a conservative, credible national paper (one of two in Canada). I get a daily subscription.

It pinpointed the church and hospital to a fairly small city= Victoria, B.C. If they thought there was no hope, they would not transfer him to New York, would they?

I gave highlights of the article. The writer likely also phrased some things imperfectly. The 'wife' is the pastor's wife, not the patient's.

Some cases of 'brain death' probably have recovered spontaneously. It was the doctors opinion that there was no hope in this case. Perhaps the term was used generally, rather than precisely as a clinical diagnosis. He may have had some brain activity, but normally such that it was incompatible with life. The '5 hour' rule (from my medical experience and training in a major trauma center) is probably not absolute. There have been rare cases of recovery, and an ethics board and family are usually involved in the decision to remove life support. It does not happen at 5 hours and 1 minute in most cases.

I admit that it is possible that the doctors were wrong in their initial assessment and the body did its own miracle. I gave enough information that you could track down the pastor and doctor in B.C. to get more documentation.

Can you admit that the omnipotent God could have done this in the same way He worked through Jesus in the Gospels and the Spirit/Church in Acts? His demonstration of love and power resulted in salvation, as it did in the Bible.

This leaves us with your theory that He is able to do this, but now does not do it for dispensational reasons (God-in-a-box IF you are wrong). If your narrow view of Scripture is incorrect, then there is no problem (there is a weight of Pentecostal/charismatic, and other branches of evangelicalism, scholarship that honestly interprets the Bible in a way that does not preclude the ministry of Jesus and Acts continuing today. Hundreds of millions of believers do not doubt God's ways today).

You can run around trying to debunk numerous stories of miracles. Some will prove to be unverifiable or questionable, but some will defy medical explanation.

I honestly share your dose of skepticism about FALSE claims. This does not mean that honest claims deserve the same treatment. My spirit resonates with the article, because it has "God" written all over it. I chose to accept the evidence (until shown otherwise... I am sure some doctor or Pastor in Victoria would counter the article if it was inaccurate) and rejoice at God's goodness. My understanding is based on Scripture, not one example in modern times.

Faith is not the only way God works. In this case, there was an answer to believing prayer. In other cases (ministries of the past), God did not heal the people with expectant faith, but He healed the skeptical unbeliever who did not believe in God at all (case of lady in Quebec healed of MS at a crusade). God can sovereignly touch someone without faith by anyone. In your view, is it theoretically possible that the sovereign God could intervene when or if He wants? If not, why not (proof text)? Even C.S. Lewis (non-Pentecostal) understood that miracles are consistent with a supernatural God ('Mere Christianity' and other books). Your preconceived theology cannot contain the sovereign wind of the Spirit or the omnipotence of God.

I was just at a healing meeting and went as a skeptic (do not like the evangelist). I saw a 14 year old carry her leg braces across the stage as she ran for the first time in years or her life? She had cerebral palsy (watch how crippled these people are...they can barely walk). She was with her family. God healed her as she sat in the meeting without a human touching or praying for her. She ran across the stage. Hundreds responded to a Gospel message for salvation, the greatest miracle. Many more testified of healings. Some will be objectively verifiable by x-rays, etc. Others were mind-over-matter emotionalism and will likely prove inaccurate. I saw this with my own eyes in August. Everything was done in the name of Jesus for His glory. My wife has MS. She wanted to go in obedience to God. She was not healed (not everyone is healed all the time). Our trust is in God, not man. She may or may not get better before she is glorified. This does not make me want to rob others of God's blessing.

I gave the source of the story. You can track it down. I threw the article out. It is one of many examples I have heard of over the years. I will wait for the book (ha, if there is one...it will have documentation). I believe my understanding of Scripture is closer to the truth. You equate your view with being the only possible way to understand Scripture. I simply feel you are wrong (see rest of thread for Scriptural evidence). This article is neither here nor there. I know God, His Word, and His ways and merely present it for what it is. If it is shown to be inaccurate, I will join you on this specific case, but it will not change my understanding of Scripture (nor should one article change yours). I had hoped it would encourage the saints, and would hope your 'cold water' would not rob people of a blessing. He is the Lord who heals you. Listen to the Word and voice of God. Jesus came to destroy sin, Satan, and sickness. These still exist. God is not on an extended holiday (nor is Satan). The Church has mighty weapons, not just church growth seminars.