ECT Forbearing threatening

[oatmeal]

As a motivator, specifically? There are only a few instances that I can think of in which motivators are used - but they certainly are - and usually negative.

And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 12:4-5

(And this was to His friends!)

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2 Corinthians 5:10-11

Though I think Jesus was sometimes a little more subtle about it with some...

And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
John 5:13-14

But in places where He could easily have condemned, He didn't. The Samaritan woman at the well (John 4) comes immediately to mind.

Never do you hear promises of a "better life" as enticements to belief. Rarely do you hear promises of anything (though they are certainly there - just not usually as motivators). The whole foundation of a life of faith is in God Himself and knowing Him.

After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Genesis 15:1

But there are scattered, explicit "threatenings".

II Corinthians 2:11 John 10:10

we are not to be ignorant of Satan, the thief, the destroyer, the Devil, that old serpent, etc for the thief cometh not but for to steal and to kill and to destroy.

We are not only to be not ignorant of his existence but also not ignorant of his devices.

Jesus Christ wisely warned us of Satan's motives intents and objectives

 

[Truster]

The word threaten or threatening is listed as 547 and means menace or strong threatening. The only examples of this word being used is by the wicked to threaten the saints Acts 4:17, Acts 4:29 and famously Acts 9:1. The only exception being 1Peter 2:23 which should be an example to us all.

I was threatened with physical violence in Town this morning. Three times this chap threatened to do some damage to my person. On the first threat I stopped and stood my ground, not wanting to turn my back on him. On the second threat I informed him that he was not going to do anything because if it was his true intention he would have done so without first warning me. On the third threat I told him that he was full of hot air and that I was tired of listening to him. I left him in the midst of blue air.

 

[nikolai_42]

II Corinthians 2:11 John 10:10

we are not to be ignorant of Satan, the thief, the destroyer, the Devil, that old serpent, etc for the thief cometh not but for to steal and to kill and to destroy.

We are not only to be not ignorant of his existence but also not ignorant of his devices.

Jesus Christ wisely warned us of Satan's motives intents and objectives

I just don't see concern with Satan as a major theme in scripture. God never warned Adam and Eve about "the serpent" in the Garden and in judgment, all 3 of them were taken down. God never warned Job about Satan - in fact it showed Satan to be a servant of God in the sense that the bounds were set by God and all that happened was of God. Job was even commended for saying "Shall we receive good at the hand of the Lord but not evil?". Even in the New Testament the warnings are few and far outweighed by the evidence that man himself is deeply flawed.

Even without all that, I don't really see the connection with the idea of motivation. Anytime we are told to fear, it is to fear God - not Satan. Anytime we are motivated by scripture, it is by the judgment of God - not the aversion of the accuser of the brethren. We are not to look for Satan himself, but rather be on our guard for those things (that may well be his devices) that can trip us up. James rather says that it is our own lusts that tempt us and lead us into sin and straying from God.

I just don't see a good connection there. Unless of course I'm just missing your point (which is a distinct possibility...)

 

[nikolai_42]

The word threaten or threatening is listed as 547 and means menace or strong threatening. The only examples of this word being used is by the wicked to threaten the saints. The only exception being 1Peter 2:23 which should be an example to us all.

I was threatened with physical violence in Town this morning. Three times this chap threatened to do some damage to my person. On the first threat I stopped and stood my ground, not wanting to turn my back on him. On the second threat I informed him that he was not going to do anything because if it was his true intention he would have done so without first warning me. On the third threat I told him that he was full of hot air and that I was tired of listening to him. I left him in the midst of blue air.

Both points are solid. Unfortunately, I'm still struggling with the specific difference between the application of threatening to the master-slave relationship and the father-son relationship. Likely my own stupidity...but your illustrations are still appreciated. They are certainly not without use on the subject. I think this is something that may take a while to sink in for me...

 

[oatmeal]

I just don't see concern with Satan as a major theme in scripture. God never warned Adam and Eve about "the serpent" in the Garden and in judgment, all 3 of them were taken down. God never warned Job about Satan - in fact it showed Satan to be a servant of God in the sense that the bounds were set by God and all that happened was of God. Job was even commended for saying "Shall we receive good at the hand of the Lord but not evil?". Even in the New Testament the warnings are few and far outweighed by the evidence that man himself is deeply flawed.

Even without all that, I don't really see the connection with the idea of motivation. Anytime we are told to fear, it is to fear God - not Satan. Anytime we are motivated by scripture, it is by the judgment of God - not the aversion of the accuser of the brethren. We are not to look for Satan himself, but rather be on our guard for those things (that may well be his devices) that can trip us up. James rather says that it is our own lusts that tempt us and lead us into sin and straying from God.

I just don't see a good connection there. Unless of course I'm just missing your point (which is a distinct possibility...)

One of the challenges of replying to some posts whether we agree or disagree is that replying to every point in a post may multiply the length of the secondary post.

My post was in reply to your reference to Luke 12:45 only.

Jesus was warning his disciples to respect the power of our adversary, for his power is formidable, it is not to be taken lightly, but we also learn that there is no reason to be intimidated by our adversary. I John 4:4

I love God's promise to Abraham in Genesis 15:1. God does not say that riches or honor or any of that kind of stuff is to be Abe's exceeding great reward, but that God's presence, all that God is to his own would be his exceeding great reward.

God's intimate presence in anyone's life is greater than any other possible reward. God will never leave us nor forsake us, He is an ever present help in time of trouble. We value our relationship with the Creator far above the temporary pleasures of His creation

 

[nikolai_42]

One of the challenges of replying to some posts whether we agree or disagree is that replying to every point in a post may multiply the length of the secondary post.

My post was in reply to your reference to Luke 12:45 only.

I don't see Satan in there anywhere...not directly or implicitly. I see, rather, a reflection of God's holding persons responsible individually like He did in the Garden. Even though He knew what the serpent was capable of and what he would certainly do, He didn't so much as mention it (at least not in scripture). There may have been a passing reference since we are told that he was more subtil than all the other dwellers of Eden, but when it came time for God to command Adam and Eve, He didn't add anything about it. Just left the command and the consequence. So the Savior, when He is talking here, leaves the responsibility at the feet of the individual and doesn't even warn about Satan.

I also think it is notable that when Peter was tested (and failed miserably), we read "Satan has desired to sift you as wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith fail not.". Not even a warning to be careful of Satan. Why not? Even in admitting that Satan was working, Peter was not told to be careful of him - just that the Lord prayed for him that his faith remain (because what he was going to do, I think, was a foregone conclusion - after all, it was prophesied!).

In the end, I see focus on Satan as a distraction at best. Except maybe as an object lesson.

Jesus was warning his disciples to respect the power of our adversary, for his power is formidable, it is not to be taken lightly, but we also learn that there is no reason to be intimidated by our adversary. I John 4:4

Again...I don't see that. While Satan's power was indeed great, that power is nothing to one whose eyes are fixed on the author and finisher of faith. But to one who is not so focused, the enemy of our souls will inevitably prove to be a stumbling block. We know Who has overcome Satan, so why even consider him?

I love God's promise to Abraham in Genesis 15:1. God does not say that riches or honor or any of that kind of stuff is to be Abe's exceeding great reward, but that God's presence, all that God is to his own would be his exceeding great reward.

God's intimate presence in anyone's life is greater than any other possible reward. God will never leave us nor forsake us, He is an ever present help in time of trouble. We value our relationship with the Creator far above the temporary pleasures of His creation

Amen!

 

[oatmeal]

I don't see Satan in there anywhere...not directly or implicitly. I see, rather, a reflection of God's holding persons responsible individually like He did in the Garden. Even though He knew what the serpent was capable of and what he would certainly do, He didn't so much as mention it (at least not in scripture). There may have been a passing reference since we are told that he was more subtil than all the other dwellers of Eden, but when it came time for God to command Adam and Eve, He didn't add anything about it. Just left the command and the consequence. So the Savior, when He is talking here, leaves the responsibility at the feet of the individual and doesn't even warn about Satan.

I also think it is notable that when Peter was tested (and failed miserably), we read "Satan has desired to sift you as wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith fail not.". Not even a warning to be careful of Satan. Why not? Even in admitting that Satan was working, Peter was not told to be careful of him - just that the Lord prayed for him that his faith remain (because what he was going to do, I think, was a foregone conclusion - after all, it was prophesied!).

In the end, I see focus on Satan as a distraction at best. Except maybe as an object lesson.



Again...I don't see that. While Satan's power was indeed great, that power is nothing to one whose eyes are fixed on the author and finisher of faith. But to one who is not so focused, the enemy of our souls will inevitably prove to be a stumbling block. We know Who has overcome Satan, so why even consider him?



Amen!

Indeed the power of him who holds the power of death, the devil, Hebrews 2:14 has been negated.

Those who do not know that and believingly live that are still vunerable, not because of any blame on God's part, but because of the person's part.

I Peter 5:8 warns us to be sober, be vigilant

why?

The promises of God are all available to believers to believe and claim, but until we believe and claim they remain unreceived.

Mark 9:23

We can acknowledge the truth without ever truly living it.

We must make sure that we are standing on God's promises, not simply mentally assenting to them.

1 Corinthians 10:12

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Our success in living for God is not dependent on thinking we are doing right but actually doing right, but it does start with learning and thinking but has to include doing.

We needs be sober, vigilant, not ignorant of Satan's devices.

John 10:10 People are still being stolen from, they continue to die and their lives destroyed. Satan, though defeated, is not idle

 

[nikolai_42]

I will respond to certain points in your post, but since I see only a tenuous connection with the OP, I may do so sparingly to avoid going down rabbit trails.

Indeed the power of him who holds the power of death, the devil, Hebrews 2:14 has been negated.

Those who do not know that and believingly live that are still vunerable, not because of any blame on God's part, but because of the person's part.

I Peter 5:8 warns us to be sober, be vigilant

why?

The promises of God are all available to believers to believe and claim, but until we believe and claim they remain unreceived.

Mark 9:23

What does it mean to claim a promise? I hear people speaking about that all the time - people claiming a promise in scripture for themselves or someone else etc... I get NOTHING like that out of the bible. Nowhere do I see the word claim or anything like it in scripture. Rather, simple belief - faith and trust in God that He is faithful (who called you) - necessarily results in His Word being accomplished. He started it, he delivered it and He will finish it. No need for claiming. That, I think, is usually used to mask unbelief and take to one's self the glory due God alone. It may not be explicitly that, but it implies that God's Word is ineffectual without our putting it into effect. That it can return to Him void if we don't do our part.

And I am familiar with using Joshua 14 as an example of claiming something ("...give me this mountain.."). That was simply following through on obedience to God to possess the land. The land was theirs - all they had to do was walk in (only after obeying). That is not what the idea behind claiming God's promises is today. If the promise is unconditional, the delivery is certain. If conditional, then merely obeying will bring His Word to fruition before your eyes. The promise to Israel was conditional and required obedience.

In that sense they claimed it, but they didn't have to say "Okay, now we've obeyed, give us what you promised.".

We can acknowledge the truth without ever truly living it.

We must make sure that we are standing on God's promises, not simply mentally assenting to them.

1 Corinthians 10:12

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Again, I think this is (at least slightly) misdirected. Paul is warning those who "think they stand" to be careful. Not because they may not really be standing on the promises, but because those who do so are pushing the envelope of pride. There is a difference between confidence in God and pride that is huge. But we are easily fooled and can start to think too much of ourselves. He is faithful who promised. When I am weak, then I am strong. It's the one who starts to think "I'm doing well" that is at the greatest risk of falling. That is pride and it goes before destruction.

I really don't see where we have to be sure where we are standing - rather make sure that if we build, we are building on Christ. There is a difference.

Our success in living for God is not dependent on thinking we are doing right but actually doing right, but it does start with learning and thinking but has to include doing.

We needs be sober, vigilant, not ignorant of Satan's devices.

John 10:10 People are still being stolen from, they continue to die and their lives destroyed. Satan, though defeated, is not idle

Divergence from the spirit of the scriptures is subtle. And here I think is one of those instances. We agree that Satan is behind much, but you seem to put more emphasis on our doing, standing etc... than I do. That's where I see the need for one thing - humility. Then and only then can the "planting of the Lord" be realized. Reading Isaiah 61, it's clear to me that that is all of God.

 

[Jedidiah]

And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Ephesians 6:9

Is this telling masters (bosses, slave owners etc...) not to threaten those who work for them because if they do, God will threaten them? Or is it saying not to do so because God doesn't threaten (as a means of "motivation")?

Is there some meaning to "threatening" that goes beyond the general understanding we have of it today?

"The feare of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge...." This applies to rearing children, but I don't think it applies to masters and servants, according to the flesh. I think Paul was merely showing some of his brilliance, teaching us how best to manage and lead our employees. It also happens to fall right in line with the Gospel, that if we understand the Gospel perfectly, we would see exactly what Paul is saying as clearly as we see our hands. Threats are no way to lead people. At least, it's no way to lead people in the long term. People who are threatened and scared to do their work tend to think about ways to avoid threats, which leads to, at best, departures, and at worse, dysfunctional behavior within the ranks.

 

[oatmeal]

I will respond to certain points in your post, but since I see only a tenuous connection with the OP, I may do so sparingly to avoid going down rabbit trails.



What does it mean to claim a promise? I hear people speaking about that all the time - people claiming a promise in scripture for themselves or someone else etc... I get NOTHING like that out of the bible. Nowhere do I see the word claim or anything like it in scripture. Rather, simple belief - faith and trust in God that He is faithful (who called you) - necessarily results in His Word being accomplished. He started it, he delivered it and He will finish it. No need for claiming. That, I think, is usually used to mask unbelief and take to one's self the glory due God alone. It may not be explicitly that, but it implies that God's Word is ineffectual without our putting it into effect. That it can return to Him void if we don't do our part.

And I am familiar with using Joshua 14 as an example of claiming something ("...give me this mountain.."). That was simply following through on obedience to God to possess the land. The land was theirs - all they had to do was walk in (only after obeying). That is not what the idea behind claiming God's promises is today. If the promise is unconditional, the delivery is certain. If conditional, then merely obeying will bring His Word to fruition before your eyes. The promise to Israel was conditional and required obedience.

In that sense they claimed it, but they didn't have to say "Okay, now we've obeyed, give us what you promised.".



Again, I think this is (at least slightly) misdirected. Paul is warning those who "think they stand" to be careful. Not because they may not really be standing on the promises, but because those who do so are pushing the envelope of pride. There is a difference between confidence in God and pride that is huge. But we are easily fooled and can start to think too much of ourselves. He is faithful who promised. When I am weak, then I am strong. It's the one who starts to think "I'm doing well" that is at the greatest risk of falling. That is pride and it goes before destruction.

I really don't see where we have to be sure where we are standing - rather make sure that if we build, we are building on Christ. There is a difference.



Divergence from the spirit of the scriptures is subtle. And here I think is one of those instances. We agree that Satan is behind much, but you seem to put more emphasis on our doing, standing etc... than I do. That's where I see the need for one thing - humility. Then and only then can the "planting of the Lord" be realized. Reading Isaiah 61, it's clear to me that that is all of God.

My apologies.

I misread your reference and did not check it like I usually do. You had Luke 12:4-5, my mistake, I typed in Luke 12:45

So back to forbearing threatening.

God says it, when we start believing it, we will gain understanding as to why

 

[Lon]

I think this is something that may take a while to sink in for me...

I've had good bosses and bad bosses. Most specifically, my Christian bosses ALWAYS treated me like a brother in Christ. There was never a moment where they threatened me, with job loss, or physical harm.

I've had bosses that aren't believers, do exactly that (until I became adept at the job).

My parents, never made me feel they were putting their needs above my own. Their threats were never about them, but about me and my need to avoid harm or avoid danger to another.

Some parents and masters do treat their kids and slaves like they own them, instead of God. They become Owners instead of stewards. Such can possibly play into a Christian relationship between worker, slave, child, and Masters, so I believe Paul is telling his congregation that these all belong to God and we are stewards, as a way of external instruction that may not be evident to some, and how to treat one another, even if we are in authority over another human being.

 

[nikolai_42]

I've had good bosses and bad bosses. Most specifically, my Christian bosses ALWAYS treated me like a brother in Christ. There was never a moment where they threatened me, with job loss, or physical harm.

I've had bosses that aren't believers, do exactly that (until I became adept at the job).

My parents, never made me feel they were putting their needs above my own. Their threats were never about them, but about me and my need to avoid harm or avoid danger to another.

Some parents and masters do treat their kids and slaves like they own them, instead of God. They become Owners instead of stewards. Such can possibly play into a Christian relationship between worker, slave, child, and Masters, so I believe Paul is telling his congregation that these all belong to God and we are stewards, as a way of external instruction that may not be evident to some, and how to treat one another, even if we are in authority over another human being.

Stewards...I think that's the word that coheres this for me. Oatmeal misreferenced the verses in Luke I was getting at in another exchange on this thread, but what he did point to actually seems to have some relevance here I think :

And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luke 12:42-46

Which, in my mind, naturally leads into Paul's statement here :

Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. I Corinthians 4:2

The one who resorts to the threatenings Paul is talking about is probably closer to the one who beats the servants and satisfies himself. Which is precisely what you were saying Lon. Selfless "threatening" carries weight because there is authority behind the warning - it is a true statement of affairs (not railing). Selfish threatenings speak to a lack of self-control and show a greater concern for self-satisfaction than loving correction. A contrast of faithfulness vs. faithlessness.

Some weighty matters there...

 

[dialm]

The rule for posting in this section is for those who consider themselves Christians. Truster told me directly that he is not a Christian. So why is he posting in this section?