turbosixx
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I'm not a proud man and will definitely admit error. I want to know the truth. I appreciate you!
ECT For Those who Think MAD to be False: What is the Gospel?
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I'm not a proud man and will definitely admit error. I want to know the truth. I appreciate you!
Sorry Turbo, but you are reasoning your own reason INTO that passage in 1 Cor. 10.
Paul is describing a DRY baptism there.
No water. No h20. No can do.
Behold Israel! The salvation of the LORD!
Exodus 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever. 14:14 The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace. 14:15 And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: 14:16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea. 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. 14:18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them: 14:20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night. 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 14:23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen. 14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, 14:25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians. 14:26 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen. 14:27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. 14:28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them. 14:29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 14:30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore. 14:31 And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.
SimpleMan77
New member
For Those who Think MAD to be False: What is the Gospel?
I'd guess you believe in the Trinity. If so, as such, you believe that the hundreds of scriptures stating that "God is one" aren't derailed when Jesus prays to the Father. One seen, one unseen. One invisible Spirit, one tangible.
The "one baptism" of the church today has two components, one seen, one unseen. One tangible and physical, one spiritual and unseen.
Both components are inextricably connected. That is THE REASON that Paul knew that the disciples in Acts 19 hadn't been physically baptized in Jesus name as soon as he knew they hadn't received the Holy Ghost.
"You haven't received the Holy Ghost?- Unto what were you baptized then?"
Inextricably connected. ONE BAPTISM
Maybe you don't believe in the Trinity, but if you do, I ask you to denounce it if you won't at least say this is a possibility.
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I'd guess you believe in the Trinity. If so, as such, you believe that the hundreds of scriptures stating that "God is one" aren't derailed when Jesus prays to the Father. One seen, one unseen. One invisible Spirit, one tangible.
The "one baptism" of the church today has two components, one seen, one unseen. One tangible and physical, one spiritual and unseen.
Both components are inextricably connected. That is THE REASON that Paul knew that the disciples in Acts 19 hadn't been physically baptized in Jesus name as soon as he knew they hadn't received the Holy Ghost.
"You haven't received the Holy Ghost?- Unto what were you baptized then?"
Inextricably connected. ONE BAPTISM
Maybe you don't believe in the Trinity, but if you do, I ask you to denounce it if you won't at least say this is a possibility.
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Luke 23:43 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It is not one seen and one not seen. It is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. That is "compound unity" and that idea is supported by verses like this one:
" And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth" (Gen.1:26).
Let US...OUR image.
There is nothing at Ephesians 4:5 in regard to ONE BAPTISM that even hints that a spiritual baptism as well as a water baptism makes up the ONE BAPTISM. There is nothing which even hints that one baptism performed by the Holy Spirit and one performed by man makes up a compound unity.
The Holy Spirit came upon them for the express purpose of giving these men the ability to speak in tongues and NOT to baptize them into the Body of Christ.
That fact alone proves that the ONE BAPTISM does not include TWO BAPTISMS.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Of course not. The ONE BAPTISM is the one performed by the Holy Spirit:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
Do you really think that the ONE BAPTISM is a baptism performed by man to the exclusion of the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit?
turbosixx
New member
I believe that's what you're doing.
Yes, they walked across on dry land but Paul easily could have said that but instead he describes them surrounded by water by saying under the cloud and through the sea and then repeats it by saying IN the cloud and IN the sea.
He's warning them using and example of the Israelites, so he paint as close a parallel the to the Israelites as he can. First showing they were baptized in water as the Corinthians were then communion.
3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ
turbosixx
New member
I do believe the ONE baptism is performed by a man.
When we are water baptized we are added by the Spirit. Here is a verse that supports that claim.
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
We have to see past the physical act into what is spiritually taking place. Just like when Naaman was healed of his leprosy. What did the healing? The water? No.
2 Kings 5:14So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That verse says nothing about anyone being baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. The following verse speaks of the "church" at Acts 2:
"Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church (ekklesia) daily such as should be saved" (Acts 2:47).
The Greek word translated "church" is ekklesia and that word can be found in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the LXX). Alfred Edersheim, a Jewish convert to Christianity and a respected Bible scholar, wrote the following:
"Nor would the term 'Church' sound strange in Jewish ears. The same Greek word (ekklesia), as the equivalent of the Hebrew 'Qahal,' 'convocation,' 'the called,' occurs in the LXX. rendering of the Old Testament, and in 'the Wisdom of the Son of Sirach' and was apparently in familiar use at that time. In Hebrew use it referred to Israel, not in their national but in their religious unity" [emphasis added] (Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah [Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. M. Eerdmans Publishing 1971] Book 3, Chapter 37, p.84).
According to Edersheim the Greek word translated "church" was in familiar use and "it referred to Israel...in their religious unity."
Next, let us look at the events here which were in regard to the ekklesia of Acts 2:
"For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (Acts 2:16-17).
The following prophecy was totally in regard to the religious unity of Israel and Israel alone:
"Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: Gather the people, sanctify the congregation (ekklesia) , assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts...And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions" (Joel 2:16,27-28).
So the ekklesia mentioned at Acts 2:47 is referring to Israel in her religious unity and it is not referring to the Body of Christ.
Yes he was. The following from answersingenesis.org
Abraham Was Saved by Grace Through Faith
The Apostle Paul dealt with an issue in Romans 4 that helps us answer this important question. He used the Old Testament to show salvation has always been by God’s grace and can only be received through faith. While addressing those who thought they could save themselves by adhering to the Law of Moses, Paul made a brilliant argument.
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness . . . . Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. . . . Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (Romans 4:1–5, 9–10, 16)
To demonstrate his point that salvation comes through faith instead of works, Paul referred to Abraham, the forefather of the Jewish people. He cited Genesis 15:6, which reveals that Abram (Abraham) “believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.” Circumcision was not introduced to Abraham and his descendants until Genesis 17—more than 10 years later.
SimpleMan77
New member
For Those who Think MAD to be False: What is the Gospel?
One verse only says "one baptism", and hundreds refer to God as one. You are willing to explain away the hundreds with the term "compound unity", yet won't apply the same logic to the one scripture saying that there is one baptism.
The Holy Spirit never came on anyone for the purpose of giving them the ability to speak with tongues. That is reading things into scripture that the writers never written. Tongues were a bi-product, not the purpose.
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One verse only says "one baptism", and hundreds refer to God as one. You are willing to explain away the hundreds with the term "compound unity", yet won't apply the same logic to the one scripture saying that there is one baptism.
The Holy Spirit never came on anyone for the purpose of giving them the ability to speak with tongues. That is reading things into scripture that the writers never written. Tongues were a bi-product, not the purpose.
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SimpleMan77
New member
The grace of God called and enabled Abraham. IT NEVER TOOK ONE STEP OF OBEDIENCE FOR HIM!!!
If Abraham would have believed that God wanted him to leave his homeland, but never took one step, then another, God's grace would have found someone else.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Of course you answered none of the points which I made.
Let us look at this passage:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God" (Acts 10:44-46).
The Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and his household and those who had accompanied Peter were astonished "because that on the Gentiles was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit." How did they know that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on Cornelius and his household? Surely they did not see the Holy Spirit baptizing anyone into the Body of Christ. That operation of God is invisible and cannot be observed.
They knew that the Holy Spirit had been poured out on them because "they heard them speak with tongues." Let us look at these verses again:
"...because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God..."
Here the word "for" is translated from the Greek word gar, and the meaning of that word as used here is "it addresses the Cause or gives the Reason of a preceding statement or opinion" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).
The reason that those with Peter knew that the Holy Spirit was poured out on Cornelius and his household was because they heard them speak with tongues. So there is nothing in any of these verses which even hint that anyone was being baptized into the Body of Christ.
The Gift of the Holy Spirit
As we saw, upon Cornelius and his household was poured out the "gift of the Holy Spirit." Does this mean that the gift is the Holy Spirit or does this speak of a gift that is bestowed by the Holy Spirit? At Acts 10:45 the reference is to a gift that is bestowed by the Holy Spirit. This "gift" of being able to speak in tongues is spoken of here by Paul where he names many of the gifts "given by the Spirit":
" Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit...For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues" (1 Cor.12:4,8-10).
Therefore, we can know that receiving the "gift of the Holy Spirit" and being "baptized with holy spirit" are one and the same thing and it happened when the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and His household. And we can see a description of the same exact thing which happened on the day of Pentecost:
"And at the fulfillment of the day of Pentecost they were all alike in the same place. And suddenly there came out of heaven a blare, even as of a violent, carrying blast, and it fills the whole house where they were sitting. And seen by them were dividing tongues as if of fire, and one is seated on each one of them. And they are all filled with holy spirit, and they begin to speak in different languages, according as the spirit gave them to declaim" (Acts 2:1-4; CLV).
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SimpleMan77
New member
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The "power" to become witnesses was the ability to speak in tongues. So the Holy Spirit came with the purpose of giving them the ability to speak in tongues.
Their effectiveness to be witnesses was dependent on their ability to speak in tongues.
1Mind
turbosixx
New member
Is the Body of Christ only referred to as the Body of Christ?
Paul says the BoC and the church are the same thing.
Col. 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church (ekklesia);
Can you provide some other evidence? I see Paul baptizing believers just as the apostles did in Acts 2.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.
SimpleMan77
New member
Body of Christ is not some revelation that the other Apostles didn't have the concept of. Jesus said "you in me and I in you". Other Apostles referenced being "in Christ".
If you are "in Christ" you are part of His Body.
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SimpleMan77
New member
Another interesting thing is that Paul, by his own testimony, did not personally baptize many of these converts. However, this passage plainly says they were baptized, and it is indisputable that it was under Paul's ministry that they were baptized.
Now, Paul was not a weak leader, and the only way that he would have had other people baptize these converts is if he instructed it.
This fact totally proves that when Paul says "Christ didn't send me to baptize" he meant that he was sent to preach, including preaching about baptism, but to have others perform it.
They didn't learn about baptism in a Jewish synagogue. They did it as a part of their conversion
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I need no other evidence because in this dispensation there is just ONE BAPTISM. You have no leg to stand on unless you are willing to argue that water baptism is the ONE BAPTISM to the exclusion of this baptism performed by the Holy Spirit:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
Are you willing to argue that no one is baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit during this dispensation?