Evolution vs. intelligent design: The debate continues

[bob b]

All right bob b, lets work backwords for a minute. Why do modern animals stop appearing in the fossil record after a certian point? Do you believe all animals where created at the same [time]? How do new animals appear?

The basic misunderstanding arose when people started to believe that the fossil record was laid down slowly over millions of years instead of very short periods of time in catastrophic bursts.

I believe the basic types were all created at the same time and have multiplied and diverged greatly and very rapidly ever since. Thus, almost as much diversity was present before the flood as has occurred in the years since the flood reduced the originally generated diversity drastically.

Thus, Evo Devo tends to validate the reduced timeframe outlined in Genesis and falsify the billions of years idea. If all the genes were available at the beginning, as Evo Devo hypothesizes, doesn't that sound like creation by an Intelligent Designer who used an even better "modular approach" than modern human designers try to do?

 

[Real Sorceror]

The basic misunderstanding arose when people started to believe that the fossil record was laid down slowly over millions of years instead of very short periods of time in catastrophic bursts.

Not a misunderstanding, but OK........

I believe the basic types were all created at the same time and have multiplied and diverged greatly and very rapidly ever since. Thus, almost as much diversity was present before the flood as has occurred in the years since the flood reduced the originally generated diversity drastically.

"Basic types"? And those would be? "Multiplied and diverged rapidly"? That sounds kind of magical and spontaneous. Please explian.

Thus, Evo Devo tends to validate the reduced timeframe outlined in Genesis and falsify the billions of years idea. If all the genes were available at the beginning, as Evo Devo hypothesizes, doesn't that sound like creation by an Intelligent Designer who used an even better "modular approach" than modern human designers try to do?

Ive already hypothized (on this thread) that G-d started the evolutionary process. What do you mean "all the genes where aviable at the beginning"? Are you suggesting some kind of super cell?

 

[eisenreich]

I believe the basic types were all created at the same time and have multiplied and diverged greatly and very rapidly ever since. Thus, almost as much diversity was present before the flood as has occurred in the years since the flood reduced the originally generated diversity drastically.

I'm going to skip over the whole concept of "types" for now, as the argument quickly devolves..

What kind of time frame are you assuming to deal with all of the diversity we see today?

Starting with Adam (lived 130 years) and tracing his lineage to Noah (600 years), Jewish historian Flavius Josephus calculated that Noah's Flood occurred 1556 years after the creation of Adam. Using a generous upper ceiling of 7,000 years for creation, that leaves ~5,444 years for all animal life to completely repopulate and diversify from the generic "types" on the Ark. How far off am I from your understanding of the timeline?

If you believe that after the flood, these types have "multiplied and diverged greatly and very rapidly ever since," wouldn't we still be witnessing these dramatic changes? Or did the "diversification" process somehow slow down once the animals reached pre-flood diversity?

 

[Johnny]

Behe is a Catholic who, despite his rejection of neo-Darwinism, still believes in some form of "evolution".

Indeed. I learned just the other day that Behe accepts common descent and finds the evidence that humans and apes share a common ancestor fairly convincing. You learn something new every day.

 

[eisenreich]

This is never discussed in the ID literature that I am aware of, although we do know from non-technical material that Behe is a Catholic who, despite his rejection of neo-Darwinism, still believes in some form of "evolution". Ditto for Michael Denton of Darwinism: A Theory in Crisis fame. Phillip Johnson is a believer, but seems to reject the young Earth idea. I don't know about Dembski, even though I did have an e-mail exchange with him regarding mutual university faculty friends, but I suspect he wants nothing to do with YEC and YECers.

It is ironic that YECers complain bitterly about the ID position and their main "thrust" while at the same time embracing information from IDers which falsifies "molecules to man" evolution and "random mutations plus natural selection" as being "all powerful".

So, in your mind, the fact that nearly every major advocate of ID wants nothing to with YECism proves it to be 'the effort to champion' for the young-earther..?

 

[3.14159]

Young Earth Creationism has problems the size of a dinosaur, er, dragon.

 

[bob b]

I'm going to skip over the whole concept of "types" for now, as the argument quickly devolves..

What kind of time frame are you assuming to deal with all of the diversity we see today?

Starting with Adam (lived 130 years) and tracing his lineage to Noah (600 years), Jewish historian Flavius Josephus calculated that Noah's Flood occurred 1556 years after the creation of Adam. Using a generous upper ceiling of 7,000 years for creation, that leaves ~5,444 years for all animal life to completely repopulate and diversify from the generic "types" on the Ark. How far off am I from your understanding of the timeline?

If you believe that after the flood, these types have "multiplied and diverged greatly and very rapidly ever since," wouldn't we still be witnessing these dramatic changes? Or did the "diversification" process somehow slow down once the animals reached pre-flood diversity?

We are continuing to see dramatic changes, but only when, as you have suggested, the "web of life" has been disturbed, allowing the changed environment to dictate the responses.

 

[bob b]

So, in your mind, the fact that nearly every major advocate of ID wants nothing to with YECism proves it to be 'the effort to champion' for the young-earther..?

I'm not familiar with the expression. Please clarify.

 

[eisenreich]

I'm not familiar with the expression. Please clarify.

My original question:
"Do most in the 'field' of ID believe in a young earth? If so, could you provide a few quick references?"

Your response:
"..we do know from non-technical material that Behe is a Catholic who, despite his rejection of neo-Darwinism, still believes in some form of "evolution". Ditto for Michael Denton of Darwinism: A Theory in Crisis fame. Phillip Johnson is a believer, but seems to reject the young Earth idea. I don't know about Dembski, even though I did have an e-mail exchange with him regarding mutual university faculty friends, but I suspect he wants nothing to do with YEC and YECers."

This led me to assume that nearly all of the leaders of the ID movement favor an old earth rather than a young earth. Since they know the 'field' of ID better than anyone, why would you assume that their work supports your view of a young earth? Perhaps because creationism = creationism, give or take a few billion years?

 

[bob b]

My original question:
"Do most in the 'field' of ID believe in a young earth? If so, could you provide a few quick references?"

Your response:
"..we do know from non-technical material that Behe is a Catholic who, despite his rejection of neo-Darwinism, still believes in some form of "evolution". Ditto for Michael Denton of Darwinism: A Theory in Crisis fame. Phillip Johnson is a believer, but seems to reject the young Earth idea. I don't know about Dembski, even though I did have an e-mail exchange with him regarding mutual university faculty friends, but I suspect he wants nothing to do with YEC and YECers."

This led me to assume that nearly all of the leaders of the ID movement favor an old earth rather than a young earth. Since they know the 'field' of ID better than anyone, why would you assume that their work supports your view of a young earth? Perhaps because creationism = creationism, give or take a few billion years?

Allies in a war against a great danger sometimes make strange bedfellows, i.e Russia and the USA against Hitler.

 

[Spenser]

Bob B, your knowledge of evolution is abysmal. Almost to the point where I should not bother to engage you but I'll bite.

If the fossil record was laid down by the flood, as you claim, how is it exactly that the simplest, or as we evil evolutionists say oldest, organisms are found in the deeper layers and as you come up through the layers of the Earth they get more complex? Are you really suggesting a flood could lay these fossils down all over the world in such a way?

Because it is completely absurd to think that possible. My degree is in geography, I took a lot of geology and meteorology so I suggest you back up any assertion you might make...

 

[Real Sorceror]

Bob B, your knowledge of evolution is abysmal. Almost to the point where I should not bother to engage you but I'll bite.

If the fossil record was laid down by the flood, as you claim, how is it exactly that the simplest, or as we evil evolutionists say oldest, organisms are found in the deeper layers and as you come up through the layers of the Earth they get more complex? Are you really suggesting a flood could lay these fossils down all over the world in such a way?

Because it it completely absurd to think that possible. My degree is in geography, I took a lot of geology and meteorology so I suggest you back up any assertion you might make...

Exactly. A massive, Earth drowning flood would place an incrdeible amount of fossils in the same layer, as they all would have died at the exact same time.

 

[SUTG]

When I was active in the aerospace field...

[SARCASM] bob, you were active in the aerospace field?! Whay haven't you even mentioned this before?!?! [/SARCASM]

:chuckle:

 

[Spenser]

ok.... I could spend days going through all this material on Behe, and probably still wouldnt grasp the information to the point one would need to argue this stuff. It seems it all centers around the intelligent design issue? while the irreducible complexity is left largely unaddressed- in the form of "Its not as irreducible as Behe said it was... but it is still irreducible, let's wait a couple years and see if we can do away with irreducible complexity." It seems this still leaves a gaping hole in evolution theory. And No, bio 1 & 2 isnt sufficient for this stuff, at least mine (bio for science majors) wasnt, and I was awake the entire time --even got straight A's.... nope, not covered well enough for me. It seems we can pretend to understand this stuff all we want, but unless you have written a thesis I consider you knowledge to be severly lacking if you want to attack (or defend) this stuff.

Here is an entire thread that covers the topic in detail, with quite a few scientists from relevant fields adding to the discussion.

 

[bob b]

Exactly. A massive, Earth drowning flood would place an incrdeible amount of fossils in the same layer, as they all would have died at the exact same time.

Why would they have died at the exact same time? Was the Flood instantaneous? :wave2:

 

[Spenser]

Why would they have died at the exact same time? Was the Flood instantaneous? :wave2:

Come on, the kind of layering you are talking about of fossils is so rapid as to have all these animals deaths be considered roughly at the same time. Or are you simply trying to implant a red herring?

 

[bob b]

Come on, the kind of layering you are talking about of fossils is so rapid as to have all these animals deaths be considered roughly at the same time. Or are you simply trying to implant a red herring?

How rapid do you think the layering occurred?

 

[Spenser]

Anything less than one year would be way too fast to arrange such fossils...

 

[bob b]

Anything less than one year would be way too fast to arrange such fossils...

Why is that?

 

[Real Sorceror]

Why would they have died at the exact same time? Was the Flood instantaneous? :wave2:

It was like 40 days right? Most everything that cant breath water would have died within the first ten days or so. That would leave a tremendous deposit of bones and plant material.