Every day is a new circus.

lifeisgood

New member
Try making an argument without referencing Obama or Clinton, and I'll listen.

Oh, annabenedetii, I understand your present outrage:

treason (trēˈzən)

n. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
n. A betrayal of trust or confidence.

I do not believe the below (all still in force, BTW) fits with the definition above :

President Trump has:
-Russian diplomats expelled still expelled
-Russian sanctions still in force
-Russian closed diplomatic facilities still closed (not one, but three)
-US still selling arms to Ukraine
-US condemnation of nerve agent attack in the UK still not retrieved
-Trump officials repeatedly criticizing Moscow still going on
-Trump telling Germany stop buying gas from Russia still not retrieved

These are just some of the ones that come to mind.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Keep those blinders on. Meanwhile, from the National Review. The National Review, of all places:


“The Only Secure Foundation of the State”


Yuval LevinJuly 16, 2018 9:30 PM
Others around here have written powerfully and well about the president’s shameful display in Helsinki on Monday. Beyond seconding their words, I would only add one thought:

President Trump’s disgraceful abasement of our country before Putin was a presidential act of dishonor on the world stage without precedent in our history. But it was also entirely in keeping with his character—and as such was a reminder, as if another reminder was needed, that character matters, and that concerns about character are matters of neither style nor aesthetics but of the very substance of leadership.

Shameful? What do they want a war with Russia so that their visceral hate for the actual President of the United States can be allayed?

Do you have any reports of them writing 'shameful' when Obama told Putin to wait until after the election?

How about any reports of them writing 'shameful' when Clinton praised Yeltsin when he was drunk on stage?

How about any reports of them writing 'shameful' when Bush looked into Putin's eyes and liked what he saw in Putin's soul?
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Oh, annabenedetii, I understand your present outrage:

treason (trēˈzən)

n. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
n. A betrayal of trust or confidence.

I do not believe the below (all still in force, BTW) fits with the definition above :


Now fit the above to Helsinki and then tell me what you think.



President Trump has:
-Russian diplomats expelled still expelled
-Russian sanctions still in force
-Russian closed diplomatic facilities still closed (not one, but three)
-US still selling arms to Ukraine
-US condemnation of nerve agent attack in the UK still not retrieved
-Trump officials repeatedly criticizing Moscow still going on
-Trump telling Germany stop buying gas from Russia still not retrieved

These are just some of the ones that come to mind.


He's made it clear he wants sanctions lifted, and has attempted. The Trump admin. attempted to reopen the embassies, but did an about-face a couple of days later, via Rex Tillerson. I don't have time for the rest, I'd have to look up how and who, because the U.S. gov't. is constantly having to clean up after Trump when he says or promises something and wiser heads still have some leverage to repair the damage.
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Shameful? What do they want a war with Russia so that their visceral hate for the actual President of the United States can be allayed?


That's coming from a conservative publication. Do you not believe anyone anymore who doesn't toe the Trump line?



Do you have any reports of them writing 'shameful' when Obama told Putin to wait until after the election?

How about any reports of them writing 'shameful' when Clinton praised Yeltsin when he was drunk on stage?

How about any reports of them writing 'shameful' when Bush looked into Putin's eyes and liked what he saw in Putin's soul?

Again - it's a conservative publication. I'm sure they must have.

But since you repeatedly try to make your arguments using whataboutism (Look at that - Obama, Clinton, Bush... you're going back 2 decades!), I have to wonder if it's because you can't really make an argument for Trump. You have to argue against what's in the past, instead of what's happening right before your eyes.
 

lifeisgood

New member
He's made it clear he wants sanctions lifted, and has attempted. The Trump admin. attempted to reopen the embassies, but did an about-face a couple of days later, via Rex Tillerson. I don't have time for the rest, I'd have to look up how and who, because the U.S. gov't. is constantly having to clean up after Trump when he says or promises something and wiser heads still have some leverage to repair the damage.

However, all still in force. Yes? Yes.
 

lifeisgood

New member
That's coming from a conservative publication. Do you not believe anyone anymore who doesn't toe the Trump line?

As I stand right now, annabenedetti, to tell you the truth, I believe no one.
Unless I really do the research and walk through the path of so much mess and discover what is true and what is fake, I personally believe no one (not CNN, not MSNBC, not ABC, not NBC, not FOX, etc., etc.)

Again - it's a conservative publication. I'm sure they must have.

But since you repeatedly try to make your arguments using whataboutism (Look at that - Obama, Clinton, Bush... you're going back 2 decades!), I have to wonder if it's because you can't really make an argument for Trump. You have to argue against what's in the past, instead of what's happening right before your eyes.

My point in bringing other presidents is because there was no outrage, none, not a scintilla of outrage, when they did similar things. Do you personally remember any outrage then? I don't.

Bush looking into Putin's eyes and seeing his beautiful soul. Do you personally remember any outrage then? I don't.

Clinton patting Yeltsin on the back when totally drunk on stage. Do you personally remember any outrage then? I don't.

Obama telling Putin to wait until after the election because then he would have had more flexibility to help Putin. Do you personally remember any outrage then? I don't.
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
"This" was only what was publicly visible.

Despite strenuous and repeated objections from the cadry of his closest advisors, Trump chose not to allow anyone in to record the two hour+ private conversation between the two of them.

He didn't want any witnesses. :think:


Exactly. He can admit nothing, deny everything, and make counter-accusations.

And in light of that:

I Was a White House Stenographer. Trump Wasn’t a Fan.

On Friday, at a news conference with Prime Minister Theresa May of Britain a reporter asked President Trump about disparaging comments he had made about her to The Sun newspaper. He denied ever having said them and declared that recordings of the interview would vindicate him. “We record when we deal with reporters,” he said. “We solve a lot of problems with the good old recording instrument.”

Do we?


“We have a problem,” my colleague announced in our office the Monday after Mr. Trump’s inauguration. “Trump doesn’t like microphones near his face.”

She had just returned from the West Wing, where she’d tried to do her job the way stenographers had since Ronald Reagan. As White House stenographers, we were among the handful of staff members who remained at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue when the administration changed. This was my first transition, but my boss had said every new administration she’d worked in since the 1980s was grateful for our help.

We weren’t powerful, but we were respected; George W. Bush used to call out, “I love the stenos!” whenever he saw my boss, Peggy, or her colleagues. Our job, after all, was to provide a first line of defense against the press by being present whenever a reporter was in the same room as the president.

We carried a microphone and two recorders at all times, and let them run until the last reporter had left the room, just in case a reporter yelled a question over his shoulder with one foot out the door. Should the press actually misquote the president, we were there, armed with an official transcript of what the president did or did not say.


But now, we were faced with a president who didn’t want to be recorded. Perhaps he didn’t fully understand the role of the stenographer. That would make sense, since his administration had rebuffed every invitation from the Obama transition team during an inherently stressful time, including to learn how to keep the lights on.

My colleague had ventured over to the West Wing three times before that first Monday to introduce herself. But she had been able only to meet a 22-year-old press wrangler.

Finally, my colleague met with Stephanie Grisham, the deputy press secretary, who would soon move on to an illustrious career as the first lady’s spokeswoman — the job that never ends because it has yet to really begin. It was Ms. Grisham who told my colleague we would need to keep our microphones far away from the president’s face. She also surmised we would not be needed often because “there would be video,” which is why the Trump press office did not have a stenographer present when the NBC News anchor Lester Holt interviewed him.

Weeks later, when I recorded the president’s interview with Bill O’Reilly, I watched with disbelief as the White House communications director Hope Hicks summoned Mr. O’Reilly to the Oval Office so he could speak with Mr. Trump privately. In my five years with President Obama, off-the-record discussions with reporters happened after work hours — not for an hour in the middle of the work day, and certainly not before an interview. When a president spoke on-the-record with a reporter, they made sure to have a stenographer present so they could have an official White House transcript, just in case the reporter came out with an inaccurate quotation.

But that was then, and this was the Trump era.

Mr. Trump likes to call anyone who disagrees with him “fake news.” But if he’s really the victim of so much inaccurate reporting, why is he so averse to having the facts recorded and transcribed?

President Trump did criticize Theresa May to The Sun. We know because it was recorded.

It’s clear that White House stenographers do not serve his administration, but rather his adversary: the truth.
 

Kit the Coyote

New member
n. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
n. A betrayal of trust or confidence.

I'm not sure the list really proves anything but I do agree that treason is a term that is overused to the point being meaningless. I don't see this as treason but it could be construed as not acting in the US's best interests.

Where WAS the outrage when Obama said "I'll have more flexibility after the election" to Putin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI0DYcHtTlI

You mean the outrage that was all over the right wing media and is really the only reason you even know about the story?
 
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