nikolai_42
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Are there any promises of scripture that will (ultimately) be fulfilled outside of Christ?
ECT Eternal Promises of scripture
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Not outside of Christ but....outside of the church?
nikolai_42
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So can one be outside of the church but still in Christ? Were Simeon and Anna, for example, outside of the church? If we are children of the free and not the bondwoman, does that not simply validate the new covenant and - as Paul said - confirm that the division is flesh and spirit? There is no Jew and Gentile in Christ. Or what were Jews (all the disciples and most of the apostles) doing as builders of a church their kinsman after the flesh would (nor could) never be a part of?
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
i've never thought of scripture in those terms, i think of Jesus Christ with every scripture i read, however, there are may promises in scripture, even individuals. saying "ultimately" speaks of the future - end times and beyond ?
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Yes, judgment.
nikolai_42
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Even that is not without direct reference to Christ...
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Acts 17:30-31
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
I Corinthians 6:1-2
nikolai_42
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As I believe...anytime, really. Even the promise to Abraham was fulfilled in Christ.
nikolai_42
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Indeed! I read that passage (most of the chapter) many times and wish Paul had been more clear in some things. It's too easy for many to read that and isolate all the promises in Him and all those out of Him...
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Indeed, but it is. He that is without Him will be judged.
Judgment, as scriptuually defined to be unto 'damnation', doesn't belong to those IN Him. Though indwelling was not yet possible, Peter demonstrated, by his denial of Jesus, He was not judged by Jesus. Peter judged himself before he took further steps away from Him and "when he returned, strengthened his brothers." In this we can say Peter was outside Jesus and when his error was revealed to him, repented and returned to his "place of safety IN Christ". I say "IN" because Peter's heart was knitted to the heart of Jesus by divine revelation. Being there was no indwelling as yet, Peter can be seen as a type of new born of God who backslided and to what degree he could have continued, depended upon him. Indwelling and Revelation is of God and I would imagine, from my own life, carries the same weight re conviction.
nikolai_42
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I don't really disagree since I know what you are getting at, but would point this out :
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 5:21-23
As I read that passage, I note that it actually fits the OP quite well. The fact is that all things are to be judged in the context of Christ. So all things (ultimately) will be found in and through Him. So even those that are not in Him will have their judgment obtained through Him because of what the Father has promised. Taken together with 2 Corinthians 1:20, this seems to imply very strongly that all eternal promises are only fulfilled in Christ (even if not all are in Christ). After all...
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
...
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Ephesians 1:10,22-23
There was never any question about Peter's being in Christ - even if one could make the case that he wasn't really in Christ until as late as Pentecost.
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:68-70
(Note Peter's important confession before Jesus said He had chosen them)
And after Peter protested that they needed to wash Jesus' feet...
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
John 13:18-19
So...when Jesus prayed for Peter...
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Luke 22:32
...it should be a stark contrast that Jesus doesn't say IF thou art converted....
So in the sense I understand to be "in Christ" (the promises, that is), Peter was always there.
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I used Peter before John 20:22, when the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was administered by Jesus, only as a type by equating the truth given him by revelation by the knitting of his heart to Jesus, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, however, momentary the revelation.
nikolai_42
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If you are saying you used Peter as a type of man who is not "yet" in Christ, I don't disagree. But I'm not quite sure I follow everything you said in that sentence.
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Yes. One who had understanding and embraced Jesus absent any indwelling.
Question: What do you believe anyone receives from being indwelt by the Holy Spirit?
nikolai_42
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I will answer the question, but simply in the interests of not going down rabbit trails and forgetting the original thought, please clarify what you meant in your statement. I imagine your answer will take off on mine, so I don't want to confuse the issue of my understanding and yours before clarifying what yours is.
The Holy Spirit, in the most broad terms, provides conviction, revelation (understanding...the veil removed), boldness and power - and the fruit of the Spirit's work is clearly marked out by Paul..
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Think on this: The flesh of man is purposed by God to come into union with Him. The Christian understands this. It is for this reason God allows him from time to time [on a daily basis . .] to be left alone to be tested for him to find out his state of knowledge of the written word because that is what we are given to stand upon when temptations come. Jesus showed this to us by His own solitude in the wilderness.
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1. The Fruit of the Spirit is not the Spirits work. It is the work and thus the mark of a Christian, without hypocracy. Bearing fruit is not an elective one chooses but, compulsory. The gifts of the Spirit are elective.
nikolai_42
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Think on this: The flesh of man is purposed by God to come into union with Him. The Christian understands this. It is for this reason God allows him from time to time [on a daily basis . .
I think you've made irreconcilable statements here. The flesh of man is not supposed to be in union with God. But it is to be crucified.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:63
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8:7-8
The cross doesn't bring the flesh into union with God, it kills it.
The fruit of the Spirit is not the Spirit's work? If bearing fruit is not elective, then how is the fruit of the Spirit any different? How is the fruit of the Spirit rather the fruit of the believer?
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nikolai_42
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The unbelieving in Christ? Or those in Christ who still have aspects of unbelief in their hearts that need to be dealt with? Since you are wanting distinction, I would say this is a big one. I will assume you meant the latter and then ask what self-work needs to be done to bring one's flesh into submission to Christ? Isn't that Paul's point...that you can't? That only crucifixion of it will do so? It either submits to the Law of God or it does not. It's not believing flesh that needs to improve itself.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:3-7
The new creation we become in Christ is not our doing but is the planting of the Lord and isn't raised with the potential for destroying sin...but with the actual destruction of that power over us.
We overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony.
Yes...we work out what God works in. But never are we told that the fruit is of us. There is none good but God.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Matthew 7:16-18
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:4-5
THEN...you have this :
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:7-8
The fruit of the Spirit is only our work to display - not to create.
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The fruit of the Spirit is to be our life. Sorry, manikins can't make the cut, incapable of relationship.
You can have the last word.