Does God know the future?
- Thread starter intro2faith
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What I deny is that you know what you are talking about to a sufficient degree that debate is useless. Any inference other than that, if spoken again publicly will be considered in my view as an outright lie. The only reason I don't consider this to be one already is that I simply do not know you and am willing to give the benefit of the doubt and take this as simply a tactic by which you claim victory in a debate which you are unqualified to engage.Johnny said:
Einstein's theories do not, I repeat, do not prove that time has an independent existence in the same way matter and energy do. They not only do not prove that, Einstein himseld didn't think they proved it, nor did he ever make the claim that it did prove it. The fact of the matter is that he assumed it, as he was fond of doing on many issues when dealing with such problems. It was a primary tool that he used when engaging what he referred to as "a beginners mind".
Now the details of his theories are not important for the continuation of the debate on the topic of this thread. The fact that the man who came up with relativity conceded and intentionally chose to ignore the logically contradictory predictions his theories made about what would happen to an object that achieved the speed of light (i.e. that it would be of infinite mass and simultaneously have absolutely no volume) because of it's apparent usefulness in explaining other phenomena, is more than sufficient to remove it from your arsenal as the magic bullet that want-a-be physicist/theologians want to make it.
So what? The motion of your clock is nothing more than a standard succession of events by which the succession of other events is compared. Time is succession and/or duration, nothing more.
This is theory which not only has not been proved, it cannot be proved. There is no way for you to know whether Einstein's fourth dimension is or is not time. Nor do we have any tools by which any such time manipulation could be observed; a rather famous (or infamous) airplane experiment not withstanding.
Now that's the end of the physics debate. And I'm not playing around with the lying issue. Anything more about taking something as a concession that does not exist and you can go waste someone else's time.
No, God would not be just if we had no choice and He proceeded to punish us for our actions. And Romans 9 does not teach otherwise. In fact, it teaches just the exact opposite. If you will answer the question I posed in my previous post (and again at the end of this post) you will be made to understand.
I could give you a lot more than two but to do so would undoubtedly send most of those here into a wild-eyed frenzy of name calling and confusion so I'll limit it to the two you asked for.
Joshua 3:10
And Joshua said, "By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites:
Simply stated, this did not happen.And Joshua said, "By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites:
Jonah 3:1 Now the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2"Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you." 3So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. 4And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day's walk. Then he cried out and said, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"
10Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.
Although the text itself in Jonah explains why the prophecy in verse 4 did not come to pass, the principle is laid out explicitly in Jeremiah 18. Such occurrences are almost common in Scripture. In fact, I would say that Jeremiah 18 is easily one of if not the most important chapters in the entire Bible. If you do not understand the principle that is being taught in Jeremiah 18, you cannot know who God is.10Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.
John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
You miss the point that is being made by Paul. If the text is teaching what you are suggesting, the scoffers had a good point and God is indeed unjust. Paul was refuting their objection by quoting Jeremiah 18.
So I ask you again, based entirely on what we are told in Jer. 18 (i.e. I'm not asking for your opinion, I'm simply asking you to report what the text itself says)...
Why did God make the vessel for dishonor?
Resting in Him,
Clete
I agree with godulz.intro2faith said:
Freak's preaching and making grand claims without substantiation means nothing. Is this your attitude at church as well? Do you believe everything your preacher says just because he's up their pounding on the pulpit or don't you require that what he teaches be both Biblical and of sound reason? If throwing out a hand full of proof texts is all it takes to convince you of something I can promise you that you will indeed be blown around by every wind of doctrine.
Resting in Him,
Clete
SOTK
New member
godrulz said:
You know, you guys are always accusing us of wanting to have our cake and eat it to, and yet I don't understand how you fail to see that this is what you are doing with Open Theology.
You basically say that God knows "parts" of the future but not the free will "parts".
Wouldn't this theology be better described as the Kinda Open View. Seriously though, I can't keep up with you guys. Sometimes you guys say that God does not know any of the future (the whole the future doesn't exist argument) and then at other times you guys say "Well, God knows some things". :freak:
And then there's the whole "manipulation" part of the Open View. You guys adamantly defend free will but then say that God goes around manipulating to bring about His will. So, Godrulz, I ask you, "Just how 'free' is your free will then?"
Really, if there is any Theology that wants their cake and eat it too, it is the one that you espouse.
First of all, any group (corporate election) is made up of individuals. If a group is predestined, the individuals in the group are predestined.
Secondly, you can argue that if a certain group is predestined then the individuals of that group are limited to that group and can't join another group meaning that will be their free choice decision to remain in that group and God foresees this choice.
Thirdly, in Romans, Paul is talking all the time about personal faith and choice. It seems totaly out of focus with the whole letter to jump to a corporate understanding of predestination.
Fourth, in Rev. 3:5 says Christ can still blot out those individual names in the book of life. Those individual people predestined to grace, becoming a Christian.
Fifth, Paul in Eph. talks about predestination to becoming Christian. It is meaningless to say we are all predestined to become Christians because predestination is Christ's foreknowledge of who will become Christians. It is not God willing all men to be saved.
It is beyond a doubt that Scripture speaks of individual predestination.
Secondly, you can argue that if a certain group is predestined then the individuals of that group are limited to that group and can't join another group meaning that will be their free choice decision to remain in that group and God foresees this choice.
Thirdly, in Romans, Paul is talking all the time about personal faith and choice. It seems totaly out of focus with the whole letter to jump to a corporate understanding of predestination.
Fourth, in Rev. 3:5 says Christ can still blot out those individual names in the book of life. Those individual people predestined to grace, becoming a Christian.
Fifth, Paul in Eph. talks about predestination to becoming Christian. It is meaningless to say we are all predestined to become Christians because predestination is Christ's foreknowledge of who will become Christians. It is not God willing all men to be saved.
It is beyond a doubt that Scripture speaks of individual predestination.
I think you might be missing the point.SOTK said:You know, you guys are always accusing us of wanting to have our cake and eat it to, and yet I don't understand how you fail to see that this is what you are doing with Open Theology.
You basically say that God knows "parts" of the future but not the free will "parts".
Seriously though, I can't keep up with you guys. Sometimes you guys say that God does not know any of the future (the whole the future doesn't exist argument) and then at other times you guys say "Well, God knows some things". :freak:
And then there's the whole "manipulation" part of the Open View. You guys adamantly defend free will but then say that God goes around manipulating to bring about His will. So, Godrulz, I ask you, "Just how 'free' is your free will then?"
Really, if there is any Theology that wants their cake and eat it too, it is the one that you espouse.
We OV'ers would state that the future is partially settled because God has plans to do certain things at certain times of His choosing.
He is God an no one can stop Him, He can bring an event to pass.
Think of it like this (keep in mind this is just a example). I tell my wife that tomorrow at 3PM I will mow the lawn. In a sense I have partially closed the future in that 3PM is settled for lawn mowing time.
Now I am just a man. I could get sick, or lazy or maybe my lawn mower wont start. So there is a real possibility that I might not mow the lawn tomorrow at 3PM.God on the other hand is God.
If He determines that the rapture will happen on June 8th 2025 at 3PM who is gonna stop Him? In essense He partially closed the future.
Now, I am not asking that you convert to open theism but can you at least see how it is logical from the open view position to state that the future can be partially settled?
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This does not follow. Here's an example that serves as a good analogy of what I am talking about. The owner of an airplane can determine in advance its destination (predestine) without knowing anything at all about who or how many will get on board.nancy said:
This sentence doesn't even make sense, never mind the argument. If I choose to join one group, are you saying I cannot choose to join another group? If I'm a member of the Lion's club, I can't be in the Air Force? That can't be what you are getting at. I do not understand your point.
You've got it exactly backward!
Read THIS!
The Book of revelation is not speaking of members of the Body of Christ but rather of Kingdom believers (i.e. Israel).
Ephesians talks about us being predestined IN CHRIST. Just as if when you get on a plane bound for Dallas, you were predestined to go to Dallas by virtue of the fact that you got IN THE PLANE. It was the plane (i.e. the group) that was predestined not you personally.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Clete, the body of Christ, is not some empty shell any more that Jewish people as the elect were some empty shell. They are composed of individuals.
If we are predestined (God has foreknowledge) of what group we choose (being either Christians or the ones who will finally perservere in heaven) then that will be the choice we choose and God sees it with foreknowledge. We cannot be predestined to not obtain glory and obtain glory.
If we are predestined in Christ we become part of the body of Christ (a group of individuals).
No, I have Romans exactly right as the verses before and after Rom 8 shows us.
Making some vague theory of corporate elect doesn't make it so.
If we are predestined (God has foreknowledge) of what group we choose (being either Christians or the ones who will finally perservere in heaven) then that will be the choice we choose and God sees it with foreknowledge. We cannot be predestined to not obtain glory and obtain glory.
If we are predestined in Christ we become part of the body of Christ (a group of individuals).
No, I have Romans exactly right as the verses before and after Rom 8 shows us.
Making some vague theory of corporate elect doesn't make it so.
Clete . . . :up:
I like your airplane analogy.
I have always used the WalMart analogy which isn't as good.
I have always stated that corporate election is like WalMart announcing that anyone who comes to WalMart next Wednesday at 3:00PM will get free hot dogs and soda. WalMart is not predestining which individuals will get the free hot dogs and soda but they are predestining that the body or group of people who show up (whoever they are) will get free hot dogs and soda.
Like I said, your plane analogy is better.
I like your airplane analogy.
I have always used the WalMart analogy which isn't as good.
I have always stated that corporate election is like WalMart announcing that anyone who comes to WalMart next Wednesday at 3:00PM will get free hot dogs and soda. WalMart is not predestining which individuals will get the free hot dogs and soda but they are predestining that the body or group of people who show up (whoever they are) will get free hot dogs and soda.
Like I said, your plane analogy is better.
Nancy its obvious you do not get the argument Clete is utilizing and its OK to admit it! You aren't responding to his assertions with any logical rebuttal.nancy said:
Everyone knows that the Body is made up of individuals, stating that fact is only stating the obvious.
Knight, I'll admit Clete's airplane argument blows me away... by its silliness. The body of Christ the corporate elect, the Christian people, whatever term you want to use is composed of individuals.
Any group is composed of individuals.
Devo, just as the Jewish people as the elect were made of individual Jews, the Christian elect are made up of individual Christians.
Any group is composed of individuals.
Devo, just as the Jewish people as the elect were made of individual Jews, the Christian elect are made up of individual Christians.
novice
Who is the stooge now?
:duh:nancy said:
:duh:
Are you really as dense as you present yourself?
Nancy, you don't even understand the term corporate election do you?
I think it should be a prerequisite that you can at least grasp simple concepts before you attempt to debate online, otherwise you end up looking foolish.
Let's see.. from what you guys say:
The elect is a specific group.
A group is composed of specific individuals.
Therefore, by the "logic" you people use. God has foreknowledge that a specific group will be saved but not the specific individuals that make up the group.
Ya... right.
The elect is a specific group.
A group is composed of specific individuals.
Therefore, by the "logic" you people use. God has foreknowledge that a specific group will be saved but not the specific individuals that make up the group.
Ya... right.
How about anyone who shows up at Wal-Mart next Wednesday at 3:00PM will be given free plane tickets for an American Airlines flight destined for Hawaii on September the 12th 2006!Knight said:Clete . . . :up:
I like your airplane analogy.
I have always used the Wal-Mart analogy which isn't as good.
I have always stated that corporate election is like Wal-Mart announcing that anyone who comes to Wal-Mart next Wednesday at 3:00PM will get free hot dogs and soda. Wal-Mart is not predestining which individuals will get the free hot dogs and soda but they are predestining that the body or group of people who show up (whoever they are) will get free hot dogs and soda.
Like I said, your plane analogy is better.
I wish I could take credit for having come up with the airplane analogy! I think a mutual friend of ours deserves the credit on that one.
Nancy,
I can't even think of how to respond to you. You just sort of self destructed there. It isn't that difficult to understand what we are talking about and I've given ample examples of how it isn't necessary to know which specific individuals will be in membership of a group in order to decide what is going to be done with that group. Here, I'll even give you one more, just for good measure...
Next Wednesday at 3:00PM (That time frame has a nice ring to it, don't you think?), I will kill any and all ants that present themselves around, in or near my house. I have no idea which particular ants they will be, nor do I have a clue as to how many will die but all the individuals which make up the group of ants which are around, in or near my house have a date with destiny next Wednesday, they have been predestined to die.
And I just though of another!
I have written in my will that all my belongings will be distributed evenly amongst any of my living children upon my death. Now, right now that includes only two individuals but at the time I wrote that down, neither of them existed and between now and the time I die there may be several more or it is even possible that there will be less. The point is I don't know which individuals IF ANY will comprise that group known as "the living children of Clete Pfeiffer" at the time of my death and yet I can decide in advance something about their "destiny" in advance.
I've thought of yet another!
But I won't bother. If you don't get it, it's a lost cause.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Freak
New member
And I'm telling you in God's eyes He doesn't see it the same way we do. Don't you get it?godrulz said:
Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.
The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.
Are you telling me, Godrulz, you understand perfectly God's understanding of the future, in light of the above passage from Psalms?
This is my point you do not understand God. We know He knows all & there is no limitation to His knowledge/understanding and yet has given man free will.
I reject it because the Scriptures reject it. Furthermore, the universal Body of Christ, generally speaking, rejects it.
Godrulz, I have admitted when I have been wrong. I have no problem telling everyone I'm wrong on a issue. This debate, however, is on one of God's attributes and the elements thereof. This is an important issue, though not essential, but nevertheless, very important. There are some doctrines (like the triune nature of God, the deity of Christ, etc), I know I'm not wrong on (because of Scripture, the bearing witness of the Holy Spirit, etc) and this issue is one of them.