Does Calvinism limit God?

[smaller]

godrulz, your position is continually filled with contradictions.

Here is yet another example of your "freewill" premise:

God initiates, persuades, convicts, etc. through our God-given (image of God) will, intellect, and emotions.

God given pretty much explains the "freewill" principle eh? Your "freewill" is only as good as the GOD given portion. Some have a little better LUCK with it. The Divine Lottery was KINDER in some people's abilities to receive eh?

There is a difference between responding to God's love with our God-given faculties, and trusting our own self-righteous works for salvation.

Ahem, your skirt is showing again.

All Protestants reject the latter. God does not coerce free will love relationships.

It might appear that the "free will love" is extracted by their GOD GIVEN abilities eh? hahaha.

Do you know that GOD DOES NOT NEED our LOVE? God is NOT IN NEED of anything. You seem to think that YOU can somehow IMPRESS Him with your GOD GIVEN abilities....and damn others with these abilities as well. btw who is your god anyway? It appears that it may be your GOD GIVEN attributes.

Surrendering to Christ in obedience to His voice is not a 'work' like giving, going to church, living a good life, etc.

Freewill's presentation merely amounts to "LOOK WHAT I DID." "I have a NEW PAIR OF SHOES!" It is self centered, self righteous, and self justified. Do you see a COMMON DENOMINATOR? Can you say SELF?

The work of God is to believe on the One He has sent.

I'm going to tuck this one away along with the "God is powerful enough to insure the outcome of any event" (but does not know the future)

You are too much...really. So entertaining.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by John Reformed

What about people, who lived and died, never having had an opportunity to exercise their "free will" in accepting or rejecting the gospel?

Gen. 18:25 "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

He judges according to the light we have. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They will be condemned if they rejected the general revelation of God as Creator and the moral law in their conscience.

This is a problem for either viewpoint. It is usually an objection of unbelievers who doubt God's goodness or fairness.

It is clear what will happen to those who hear the Gospel and reject it. We can assume that those who have not heard the Gospel will also be lost, but judged less severely than those who knew it and willfully rejected it.

Acts 4:12; Jn. 14:6; Rom. 1-3

There is no reason to use the concept of some not hearing the Gospel to argue that God wills some to be saved and others to not be saved simply on the basis of His 'pleasure' rather than our response to His universal drawing of those whom He loves and died for (not just the elite 'elect').

 

[godrulz]

smaller: I think you do not fully understand my thoughts and are thus rejecting a 'straw man' caricature of what I believe.

e.g. I also agree that God is complete in Himself and does not 'need' our love or anything else.

 

[smaller]

oh yeah, great response....not

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by godrulz

Gen. 18:25 "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

He judges according to the light we have. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They will be condemned if they rejected the general revelation of God as Creator and the moral law in their conscience.

This is a problem for either viewpoint. It is usually an objection of unbelievers who doubt God's goodness or fairness.

It is clear what will happen to those who hear the Gospel and reject it. We can assume that those who have not heard the Gospel will also be lost, but judged less severely than those who knew it and willfully rejected it.

Acts 4:12; Jn. 14:6; Rom. 1-3

There is no reason to use the concept of some not hearing the Gospel to argue that God wills some to be saved and others to not be saved simply on the basis of His 'pleasure' rather than our response to His universal drawing of those whom He loves and died for (not just the elite 'elect').

Gen. 18:25 "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Of course He will. All who have sinned will receive their just wage: Eternal death.

“He judges according to the light we have”; “…They will be condemned if they rejected the general revelation of God as Creator and the moral law in their conscience.”.

I couldn’t find that evidence in the Bible, but what I did find seems to contradict your statements above.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

You said, “This is a problem for either viewpoint. It is usually an objection of unbelievers who doubt God's goodness or fairness.”

Actually it presents no problem at all for those who believe what the bible says about God’s sovereign grace. He has mercy on those to whom He will have mercy, whether or not man deems it fair or not!

Natural revelation, as well as the law, only serves to bring death. I don’t think that this is arguable.

 

[godrulz]

God is not arbitrary or specious. He judges according to truth, reality, righteousness, His moral law, justice, virtue, or vice. He does not play eenie, minnie, moe...you are in or out based on my will alone. The soul that sins is the one that will die (Ezekiel).

Yes, all have sinned and are condemned. The remedy is the Gospel based on the person and work of Christ. It is efficacious for all who believe, and condemns those who persist in rebellion, despite God's universal love.

 

[smaller]

Let's see?

God's Universal Love is ONLY EFFICACIOUS if a HUMAN BEING "activates" it.

what drivel.

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by godrulz

God is not arbitrary or specious. He judges according to truth, reality, righteousness, His moral law, justice, virtue, or vice. He does not play eenie, minnie, moe...you are in or out based on my will alone. The soul that sins is the one that will die (Ezekiel).

Yes, all have sinned and are condemned. The remedy is the Gospel based on the person and work of Christ. It is efficacious for all who believe, and condemns those who persist in rebellion, despite God's universal love.

There you go again...misrepresenting the calvinist position with schoolboy level strawmen.

God does all things according to His good pleasure. Christians would be well advised to trust that what He has said. knowing that it is always in accordance with His nature. He is holy, just, righteous, et cetera.

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by smaller

Let's see?

God's Universal Love is ONLY EFFICACIOUS if a HUMAN BEING "activates" it.

what drivel.

Nice misquote. God's love is universal and unconditional. He is absolute, perfect love.

The atonement is another issue. It is only efficacious for those who repent, believe, trust, love, etc. It would be unloving and unwise to forgive and force someone to live with Him forever if they persist in hatred, rebellion, sin, selfishness, etc.

Jn. 1:12 To as many as received Him, He gave the right to become children of God.

Jn. 3 contrasts those who believe and live with those who do not believe and perish.

Universalism is a heresy.

Different destinies for the devil and some men flow out of the love and holiness of God. It is man's fault, not God's fault if they end up separated from His holy presence.

The love of God is unconditional. The atonement is efficacious with certain conditions (there are different consequences for receiving or rejecting the gift of eternal life).

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by John Reformed

There you go again...misrepresenting the calvinist position with schoolboy level strawmen.

God does all things according to His good pleasure. Christians would be well advised to trust that what He has said. knowing that it is always in accordance with His nature. He is holy, just, righteous, et cetera.

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

For God to unconditionally elect some and not others trillions of years before their existence is arbitrary (TULIP). It is not based on holiness, truth, love, etc.

He does not have to save anyone, but He does not just chose some and not others without consideration of their space-time choices in response to the Gospel. He is merciful and just. There are different shades of Calvinism, but most seem to place the elect's destiny in the mysterious will of God, rather than the clear responsibility and onus on the individual to receive or reject Christ with the appropriate consequences. The Gospel is active and the person of Christ is the great Divider of humanity. Salvation is not a passive process that God does to some, but not others (irrisistible grace; perseverence; unconditional election; limited atonement).

The moral law of God and the universe suggest that love and relationship involves free will. This is why we are responsible and accountable for what we do with God and the Gospel. If God's will is the only factor and salvation is unilateral, God would logically be responsible for evil (contrary to His attributes, character, and revelation).

God does not desire some to be saved and some to perish. The atonement is efficacious for all those who will cease their rebellion and run to the arms of the Savior. His love is unlimited, but His holiness precludes unrepentant people from being saved against their wills.

 

[John Reformed]

It would be refreshing to recieve some scriptural support for your position.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by John Reformed

It would be refreshing to recieve some scriptural support for your position.

He can't; He has none. The Bible does not teach free will. That's why the OV'ers have to create volumes of books to support their "theory".

 

[smaller]

Greets godrulz

Nice misquote. God's love is universal and unconditional. He is absolute, perfect love.

WITH your SELFimposed restriction that said DIVINE ETERNAL UNCONDITIONAL PERFECT UNIVERSAL LOVE is STOPPED UP completely by the freewill of certain members of mankind AND then turns into DIVINE ETERNAL RETRIBUTIVE TORTURE.

The atonement is another issue. It is only efficacious for those who repent, believe, trust, love, etc. It would be unloving and unwise to forgive and force someone to live with Him forever if they persist in hatred, rebellion, sin, selfishness, etc.

Oh, we are still on the page that YOUR MAN made, self righteous, self justifying, self atoning, self indulgent, temporary, fickle, self serving LOVE has some type of VALUE to GOD???

lol

Jn. 1:12 To as many as received Him, He gave the right to become children of God.

Jn. 3 contrasts those who believe and live with those who do not believe and perish.

You know who gets put away. The DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS. They ARE WITH the flesh, so it is RIGHT that you do not see THEM and FALSELY CONDEMN your neighbors.

NONE come to The Son lest they are DRAWN by The FATHER.

The Father has wisely left you no small amount of ENEMIES to PROVE the supposed value of your LOVE eh?

Universalism is a heresy.

Tell it to THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD. Perhaps He will grant you your prayers and BOW to your LIMITS.

Different destinies for the devil and some men flow out of the love and holiness of God. It is man's fault, not God's fault if they end up separated from His holy presence.

Uh huh. Always looking for FAULT. Perhaps the fault LIES a little closer to home.

In either case there is A SURED difference in supposed "FREEWILL'S" based on the disparate outcomes. Perhaps the GRANTOR of same put in A FIX on some and not on others?

The love of God is unconditional.

No, according to you it is LARGELY and NEAR TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE.

The atonement is efficacious with certain conditions (there are different consequences for receiving or rejecting the gift of eternal life).

And of course we also know that Romans 11:26-30 totally blows holes through both the freewill and calvin position, as well as DOZENS of other texts, 1 Tim. 4:10 being one. Romans 3:22 another, and the TESTIMONY of the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD Himself speaks rather well on the subject as well.

"I will DRAW ALL MEN TO ME"

"those who come to me I will IN NO WISE cast out."

"I judge NO MAN."

"The Father judges NO MAN."

You of course do...

enjoy!

smaller

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by John Reformed

It would be refreshing to recieve some scriptural support for your position.

See the 1000s of posts on TOL for Scriptures.

"Life in the Son: The doctrine of perseverance" - Robert Shank

This Baptist looks at Scriptures on each side and the ones we have in common but interpret differently. A post is not a Scriptural treatise, but we have posted many verses on TOL that deal with many passages. Our view rests on Scripture, not speculation.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Z Man

He can't; He has none. The Bible does not teach free will. That's why the OV'ers have to create volumes of books to support their "theory".

Books on Open Theism have chapters on the Scriptural support for the view. Many have indexes of verses. You either ignorantly have not opened a book on Open Theism, or slander against the evidence by saying there is none (the dozens of books I have on Open Theism deal extensively with specific verses and passages...even the anti-Open books try to refute the many verses we bring up...your statement is simplisitic and in error). The Wesleyan-Arminian camp of Christianity through the centuries has presented cogent Scriptural arguments for free will contrary to the deterministic Calvinistic camp.

No free will=no responsibility/accountability= no love= no humans (machine or animal)= no God (God is free).

 

[godrulz]

smaller: love takes risks and is vulnerable; power is not sheer force, but is demonstrated even in weakness or voluntary limitations (like wanting all to be saved, but in fact all not being saved= free will).

 

[John Reformed]

It's a shame that you are unwilling to support your doctrine for yourself. Withiut support from Scripture, your opinions (as well as mine or anyone else's) have no authority.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by John Reformed

It's a shame that you are unwilling to support your doctrine for yourself. Withiut support from Scripture, your opinions (as well as mine or anyone else's) have no authority.

Unwilling?

TOL and Worthyboards have countless posts of Scripture and arguments that I have made. Perhaps you refer to some of the recent posts on this thread?

I agree that Scripture is the authority. Merely quoting a prooftext will not be persuasive. We need to dialogue and interact with ideas.

Free will is assumed in the biblical narrative and confirmed by our experiences. Determinism is untenable and indefensible (except to a genetic evolutionist).

'Chose today whom you will serve...' (?Joshua)... does that not sound like free will?

 

[smaller]

smaller: love takes risks and is vulnerable;

power is not sheer force, but is demonstrated even in weakness or voluntary limitations (like wanting all to be saved, but in fact all not being saved= free will).

The observations have been made godrulz.

by your hand this is what we find:

LOVE (God) appears only to be as effective as GOD GRANTED (limited) freewill ALLOWs, YET God can OVERIDE to PUNISH AND TORTURE, but CANNOT OVERIDE with HIS LOVE. Is this right????

I understand your position REQUIRES you to LIMIT GOD. Why do you limit ONLY TO ETERNALLY TORTURE His (presumed) opposers when there is CLEAR EVIDENCE He can and does do to the contrary???

Another example is that you PRESUME that "choice" is a freewill act. It can be a Divine Command as well. AS a Divine Command "choose" is no longer a freewill act. It is based upon a LIMITED SELECTION of items Divinely Provided. A "freewill act could include an opportunity to choose NEITHER or choose any without retribution, or perhaps THINK UP other alternatives to "choose from."

Your delivery of a God who is POWERFUL ENOUGH to INSURE the OUTCOME of ANY EVENT appears to be QUITE LIMITED by the "humans" He "sometimes" interacts with.

So His Power is OVER TURNED from what you have presented into A LIMITED POWER that CANNOT insure, and is then FORCED to do something else entirely.

If a MAN limits GOD,

Does this MAKE GOD LIMITED?

 

[godrulz]

If there is any 'limitation' on God, it is not inherent in His nature. It is a voluntarily chosen 'limitation', in that God chose to not be the only free moral agent in the universe with genuine freedom and 'say so'. We can and do make a difference. Our choices are sometimes at cross-purposes to God's intent. e.g. someone who kills themselves or others. He could have used brute, unlimited force to stop all sin or war. It is obvious He does not always intervene. This is a limitation in a sense, but one of His chosing in order that the integrity of the possibility of loving relationships rather than robotic subjects would be maintained.

It is a great act of loving sacrifice to not always have to have one's way. The possibility of good and evil show His love and wisdom. The alternative would be for no limitation on His perfect will in any sense, but at the expense of love, freedom, relationship (which is a higher good than being a control freak).