Does anything ever REALLY change re elections? (outsiders..)

republicanchick

New member
It is really troubling that people tend to vote for someone not b/c that is the person s/he wants, but b/c that person is ahead in the polls.. The person the voter REALLY wants is behind in the polls, so that person often gets written off as "can't win"

This is bad.. The media (AGAIN) manipulates us to vote a certain way.. You can believe that or not but it is the absolute truth.

They spend HUGE amounts of time interviewing the forerunners.. (and others the bosses @ the station or newspaper favor) and God knows how these people got to be forerunners (except for getting more coverage), but in any case, it is the same old same old every election... We get someone based on popularity... or what some wealthy station or newspaper CEO wanted

In the bible it speaks of false prophets and how just "everyone" likes them.. while the true prophets are hated and mistreated





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republicanchick

New member
fiorina is an outsider

NOW

Carson

ditto

We have NO idea what they will become when they get to WA

We DO know, however...

how Cruz will be...

the only one who has been tested

by WA



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republicanchick

New member
Fox never has stories about Jindal

rarely ones on Cruz

you know who they favor

They may not favor Trump but they have plenty of stories on him.. and as someone once said

no such thing as bad publicity
 

republicanchick

New member
if the media shun those who are behind in the polls &/or don't have much $$

well, we the people are given FEWER CHOICES

so much for that freedom to choose thing.. works when u want to kill your children, but otherwise, forget about it..

Jindal seems like a very honest (too honest for his own good?) person..

yet you rarely see him on the news... until he calls Trump a Squirrel-head (oh, yeah, that was me paraphrasing Jindal...LOL)

So...

I guess the media only cares about "successful" people..

well, they may want to remember that there are far more non-rich, non-famous folks in the world than rich/famous... far, far more...

and we the little people get really sick and tired of being totally ignored and being treated like worthless scum




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LightPattern

New member
if the media shun those who are behind in the polls &/or don't have much $$

well, we the people are given FEWER CHOICES

so much for that freedom to choose thing.. works when u want to kill your children, but otherwise, forget about it..

.....

I guess the media only cares about "successful" people..

well, they may want to remember that there are far more non-rich, non-famous folks in the world than rich/famous... far, far more...

and we the little people get really sick and tired of being totally ignored and being treated like worthless scum




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To get a candidate who will put FRONT & CENTER the problem of citizen representation in Washington: please support getting Lawrence Lessig into the televised democratic debates.

This may seem like an odd thing to ask, considering your username. I am confident however, that the more you look into it, the more sense it will make.

If you have the time, this is a great place to spend it.
18 minute TED talk: We the People, and the Republic we must reclaim


Or, more quickly, from a right-leaning writer and publication:
Forbes: Democrat Debate Controversy


DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman Schulz recently, according to therightscoop.com and given national prominence courtesy of the DRUDGE REPORT, repeatedly was heckled by a full auditorium demanding more debates:

" While the press has been completely obsessed by el Trumpo so that they can damage and dismantle the Republican party, they have tried their best to ignore the growing mutiny in the Democrat party.

But it burst into their faces Saturday morning when the Democrat National Committee chair … was HECKLED by an entire crowd demanding more debates among the leftist presidential candidates! "​

The DNC, controversially, has limited the number of debates. The Democrats are allowing for only six debates in the 2016 cycle. Both Bernie Sanders and Gov. Martin O’Malley have expressed their displeasure, with a campaign spokesman for O’Malley calling this out as facilitating a Hillary “coronation.”

Now comes yet another controversy. Perhaps it will be a doozy.

Harvard professor Lawrence Lessig recently announced, after crowdsourcing over $1 million, his own unconventional presidential campaign. Lessig is proposing to run exclusively on national electoral reforms, predominantly the public financing of Congressional elections.


And if you don't feel compelled by the political-foundation changing ideas.. then do it to throw another wrench in the Hillary Clinton machine! :D

Petition to DNC: Let Lawrence Lessig debate!
 

PureX

Well-known member
I can tell you how to change things regarding our elections, fast! Almost overnight! And that is for all of us to vote out every incumbent candidate, every time, until one of them actually starts fighting for government 'by the people', and not the mighty dollar: that is they begin to fight to end the influence of big money on politics. End the legalized bribery of the legislature through "professional lobbying". Eliminate the right of corporate "free speech". Eliminate 'gerrymandering' by setting up bipartisan citizen's committees to redraw district boundaries according to set guidelines. Eliminate purely electronic voting machines so that there will always be a paper ballot that can be recounted. And eliminate the electoral college; returning to 'one-man-one-vote'.

If every current incumbent politician knew he/she was going to be voted out of office if they did not actively pursue these changes, I guarantee they would actively begin to pursue these changes. And as these changes began to occur, our elections would become far more interesting, our politicians far more effective, and most of all our government would become representational of the people again. As it was intended to be by the founders.
 

republicanchick

New member
I can tell you how to change things regarding our elections, fast! Almost overnight! And that is for all of us to vote out every incumbent candidate, every time, until one of them actually starts fighting for government 'by the people', and not the mighty dollar: that is they begin to fight to end the influence of big money on politics. End the legalized bribery of the legislature through "professional lobbying". Eliminate the right of corporate "free speech". Eliminate 'gerrymandering' by setting up bipartisan citizen's committees to redraw district boundaries according to set guidelines. Eliminate purely electronic voting machines so that there will always be a paper ballot that can be recounted. And eliminate the electoral college; returning to 'one-man-one-vote'.

If every current incumbent politician knew he/she was going to be voted out of office if they did not actively pursue these changes, I guarantee they would actively begin to pursue these changes. And as these changes began to occur, our elections would become far more interesting, our politicians far more effective, and most of all our government would become representational of the people again. As it was intended to be by the founders.

I agree w/ a lot of this

but explain what is wrong w/ the electoral college?



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PureX

Well-known member
I agree w/ a lot of this

but explain what is wrong w/ the electoral college?
It was originally set up to protect the welfare of people living in sparsely populated areas, because 'one-man-one-vote' would always put them at a political disadvantage with the political clout of the population centers. The electoral college was supposed to be made up of area representatives from each state, and not just a given number of voters. So that the will of the people in sparsely populated ares could cary the same 'electoral significance' as those in more populated areas.

The difference is that now days our population is pretty well spread out and the voter's issues are pretty homogenous, to the point that such a system is both clumsy and unnecessary. And it's too susceptible to manipulation in most states, such that the college members can actually cast their support for candidates that the majority of the voters in their districts did not actually vote for. It's long past time for the electoral college system to go.

The various population densities in the states are already represented by their own area congressmen and senators, there is no need for the electoral college anymore.
 

republicanchick

New member
It was originally set up to protect the welfare of people living in sparsely populated areas, because 'one-man-one-vote' would always put them at a political disadvantage with the political clout of the population centers. The electoral college was supposed to be made up of area representatives from each state, and not just a given number of voters. So that the will of the people in sparsely populated ares could cary the same 'electoral significance' as those in more populated areas.

The difference is that now days our population is pretty well spread out and the voter's issues are pretty homogenous, to the point that such a system is both clumsy and unnecessary. And it's too susceptible to manipulation in most states, such that the college members can actually cast their support for candidates that the majority of the voters in their districts did not actually vote for. It's long past time for the electoral college system to go.

The various population densities in the states are already represented by their own area congressmen and senators, there is no need for the electoral college anymore.

well, this makes sense as far as it goes but I don't see how it really harms much of anything (?)

Frankly, I was never taught much about the electoral college.. and I read a lot, so I don't know how I missed info on the ec.. but in any case..

again, I don't see the HUGE harm it does.. Maybe you could futher explain?

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PureX

Well-known member
well, this makes sense as far as it goes but I don't see how it really harms much of anything (?)

Frankly, I was never taught much about the electoral college.. and I read a lot, so I don't know how I missed info on the ec.. but in any case..

again, I don't see the HUGE harm it does.. Maybe you could futher explain?

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The problem is that in some states, the electoral college does not have to support the candidate that the majority of people voted for. They can override/disregard the will of the people. And even in states where they are obliged to act of behalf of the voters, their representation can be manipulated by the area and populations they represent (gerrymandering).

It's a layer of complexity that is no longer necessary. And that can (and does) easily hide unfair influences and manipulations. People think they are voting directly for a presidential candidate. But they are not. And the people who are voting in their stead (the electoral college) may or may not be honestly supporting their choices. And now days, when bribery and corruption is so commonplace in our government, and throughout our whole election system, this is yet another way it perverts democracy.
 

republicanchick

New member
The problem is that in some states, the electoral college does not have to support the candidate that the majority of people voted for. They can override/disregard the will of the people. And even in states where they are obliged to act of behalf of the voters, their representation can be manipulated by the area and populations they represent (gerrymandering).

It's a layer of complexity that is no longer necessary. And that can (and does) easily hide unfair influences and manipulations. People think they are voting directly for a presidential candidate. But they are not. And the people who are voting in their stead (the electoral college) may or may not be honestly supporting their choices. And now days, when bribery and corruption is so commonplace in our government, and throughout our whole election system, this is yet another way it perverts democracy.

in college, I did not take any class that taught about the election process, so excuse my ignorance if I say something odd.. but I thought the candidates voted on had to have a majority in both popular vote and electoral vote


again, I am just now beginning to get into this... I never followed an election as closely as this one (which is why I have questions)


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PureX

Well-known member
in college, I did not take any class that taught about the election process, so excuse my ignorance if I say something odd.. but I thought the candidates voted on had to have a majority in both popular vote and electoral vote
In some states they do, but in some they do not. And even the popular vote can be manipulated by gerrymandering the representative's districts. There's always a way to cheat, and there's always plenty of people willing to do the cheating.
 

lukecash12

New member
A short little treatise on voting

A short little treatise on voting

There is no such thing as a true meritocracy, or anything that can be rendered in a conscionable comparison to it, anywhere in the world. Why? Why indeed:

Gerrymandering-

Most democratic countries break up voting for representatives into voting districts. This is so that people can have local representation. Pretty much all of the voters in any govt with some form of democratic representation prefer local representation. The problem? Gerrymandering is when districts are broken up strategically to the benefit of one or more groups.

So what you can have is a situation where if, for example, five districts weren't broken up into one district you could have it so that in the majority or even all of those districts just one party wins. Depending on the number of parties involved, and the type of voting system (virtually all of them are a "first past the post system", or "winner takes all"), the same party that wins every district can literally have won less than twenty percent of the votes in the five districts as a whole.

Obviously, for those more simple reasons and considering a lot of other complicated stuff involved in gerrymandering (lots of not so fun to think about laws, committee rules, and back door type stuff), what can very easily happen is a wildly unrepresentative govt with basically zero concern for accountability in order to receive votes. So meritocracy 0, craven manipulation 1.

Strategic voting-

Oh boy, oh boy kids, are we depressed about voting yet? Well the last one actually wasn't too bad. The next problem? Well, let's just start by saying that it's probably the primary reason two party systems reign, and third party candidates end up screwing elections.

Doubtless, you may have a good idea already of what I'm talking about. People, when voting, are subject to several kinds of insecurities and one of the main insecurities is that although they really would prefer a particular candidate... well, clearly that candidate isn't going to win so they end up voting for someone more likely win that is closer to their candidate. In fact, it's not at all unusual for people to vote for candidates that they dislike, even keenly, because they really don't want another candidate to win.

Run some pretty simple models accounting for this with typical percentages and anywhere between 3-6 candidates, and you'll invariably find a shift towards a rigid two party system. Most models end up with terrible looking figures when you look at the population as a whole, and then compare polling percentages before the delegates choose nominees (oh boy, delegates choosing nominees, the electoral college and similar institutions in other countries, you're up next you sick wastrel), you end up with legislative systems where there are as much as hundreds of representatives, but... you may get pretty angry when you see how appallingly unrepresentative these models look, considering what everyone's ideal vote would have been.

And then we move on from these models to even more appalling results that have occurred and are happening in the real world:

The UK just screwed the pooch


So... once we've discussed the electoral college and delegates, thinking about how much the USA voting system in particular can just plain suck, us USA voters can be consoled when we look at those poor folks in the UK that are dealing with the most, suck, ever. *Kudos if you know what group was represented by purple in those charts, the tiny sliver of representation they got is a testament to the most rank examples of gerrymandering and strategic voting I have ever seen anywhere*

Meritocracy 0, craven manipulation 2.

You don't directly vote for nominees or candidates-

You've finally managed to get over all of this and decided that you still want to vote? Well welcome, my friend, welcome to the world of delegates.

There are a number of different kinds of delegates from country to country, hence the different names. However, in many respects what they do is fundamentally the same, ergo the problems are basically similar. In Nordic countries like Finland, or Deutschland (Germany for those of you who aren't frickin' in love with the language, philosophy, and culture), they have aldermen. Let's stick to the US though, because it's more familiar for the presumable majority here. Here in the US we have delegates, super delegates, and the electoral college (which happens to be Congress, by the way).

Ready to go to the polls and nominate someone? Well, chances are you live somewhere that you have to be a registered member of a party. Okay, now we're registered! Whether it be the presidential election, with primaries and caucuses (originally it was all done by caucus, in the 18th century, from the Continental Congress up to much later), or congressional and state elections there will be either primaries and caucuses, like mentioned, or something similar. Typically it is a primary or a process that looks like a clone of it, where you go to a private box and cast your vote. It's rare to be able to vote for a nominee in absentia, that is... unless you're a delegate.

Delegates are comprised of people running the parties and these people are the ones who actually vote... but they're really voting for you. In the majority of states these delegates are legally required to choose the candidate with the most votes in the district they are representing (oh boy, districts, that means we can gerrymander the crap out of nominations too). However, not all of them are required to do that and those delegates can vote however they please. Not much of a big problem because there are only a few states with that kind of delegate defined in their state constitution, and in the overwhelming majority of historical examples these delegates vote with their district.

So what's the big deal? Well, my not already depressed enough friend, the delegates are split incredibly disproportionately from state to state. Not only do states with much more population not get proportionate representatives in the House, or even remotely in the Senate because everyone gets two, but in presidential elections the nominees only care about five states.

You see, not only does it matter who gets how many members of the electoral college proportionate to their population count, it matters in the primaries how many delegates they get for the nomination. And, on both counts it really matters who gets to vote first. If you weren't aware of why you should despise Iowa and New Hampshire, welcome to the wonderful new world of despising them with a lovely, fetid smelling passion. They get to vote first on your nominees, and guess who is really important in the general election too? Yup, five different states are subject to practically all of the campaigning, because of 18th century political conditions.

As our Senate is comprised of two candidates from each state, the sentiment was that each state should have their pull in the electoral college roughly equalized so the House seats were divvied up accordingly. The problem with that, is that we aren't living in the 18th century and not only are there are a lot more states than when it was in the teens, but there are wild differences in population.

So, because every state automatically gets three members of the college and others are divvied up to the point that only two states only have three, those few states that actually wrote it into their constitution that they get to be the first group of states voting (I mean, us other states can try but then their own constitutions legally require them to open the polls sooner, it is actually written so that it has to be a certain amount of time sooner than us) determine what strategic voting will look like and also receive way too much voting power in the first place considering their population.

If things were more proportional, the state of California where I live now would have literally twenty more delegates. Why do we need that many more delegates, you ask? Maybe because my vote is mathematically worth only a fifth of a New Hampshire resident's vote.

The final tally: meritocracy 0, craven manipulation 3. Looks like it was a runaway game.

So, welcome to the best, worst form of government in the world. Pretty much all democratic republics have issues that at their essence look identical, resulting in representation not just disproportionate but actually heavily disproportionate to the actual population itself. Why is it still the best? Because believe it or not, other forms of government are even less accountable.
 
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