Do I condemn trinttarians to some form of damnation? Not at all

[oatmeal]

Jesus was with His Father before creation.


Jesus is the Creator of ALL things. Col 1:15-18

Jesus did NOT "become" the Son of God.

Jesus was with His Father before creation.

Really? in what form? human or spirit? God does not change Malachi 3:6

For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

If the Hebrew of "I am that I am" is correctly translated, then God remains who he is. He did not indicate," I am what I am unless I change into something else, then I will be something different that what I am now"

Jesus is the Creator of ALL things. Col 1:15-18

Really, you use that as a proof text?

¹⁵ Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

¹⁶ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

¹⁷ And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

¹⁸ And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Who is the him of "for by him"?

Is it the image of the invisible God? or the invisible God?

Jesus, first of all was not invisible, he was seen of many, many people, numbering into the thousands if not tens of thousands, so that eliminates any possibility that Jesus is God right there.

It is the invisible God therefore that did the creating, not the image of the invisible God. Jesus is the image of the invisible God, not the invisible God.

Jesus did NOT "become" the Son of God.

That is right!

Good job!

Please tell that to all your trinitarian buddies.

He did not exist as a live person until his beginning as described in Matthew 1:18

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

birth is the Greek word gennessis -beginning. Jesus was the son of God from his beginning. He did not exist before his beginning, although God certainly had him in mind from the beginning.

God had us in mind from before the foundations of the world and chose us in him long before we ever existed.

Ephesians 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We likewise had glory with the Father in those times as well.

Romans 8:

²⁹ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

³⁰ Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

glorified is in the past tense, we were already glorified because God foreknew as well as Jesus Christ, in truth, Jesus is one of those He foreknew as makde clear in I Peter 1:19-20 the word foreordained, if translated as it is in the other four places it shows up, should be translated, foreknew.

¹⁹ But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

²⁰ Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

²¹ Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Jesus Christ was foreknown, even as we were foreknown.

You really should pay attention, you are missing out on some very, very wonderful truths, truths that I too had to learn from qualified teachers

 

[Right Divider]

That is called a straw man argument. or a false narrative.

I have in no way suggested that God is human, it is the trinitarian doctrine that teaches that God is human, or rather became human.

Wow... speaking of a straw-man argument. No, we don't.

The doctrine of the trinity says NEITHER of those things. God the Son took upon Himself a human nature and human body.

Again, Jesus was WITH HIS FATHER before the world was created.

Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Why do you ignore this simple fact?

God is spirit, is what Jesus Christ taught, though it seems that matters little if nothing to trinitarians.

Again you lie.

Was Jesus, who you claim to be God, spirit or human when he spoke those words?

Are you referring to John 17:5?

Both. Jesus did not stop being God (an impossibility) when He ALSO took upon Himself humanity.

Since, I do not believe trins can answer that one accurately, I will supply that answer, Jesus is not God but a human who was begotten of God as John 3:16 and other places indicate. He is not God, but the son of God.

You are quite confused. Since John 17:5 shows clearly and unambiguously that Jesus existed long before His incarnation, you are simply wrong about Him and His natures.

Not at all, however, I have learned enough scripture to recognize the error of the trinitarian threeology

No, you've rejected a proper understanding of scripture for a lie about scripture.

 

[Right Divider]

Really? in what form? human or spirit? God does not change Malachi 3:6

So typical of heretics to take scripture out of context.

Mal 3:6 KJV For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

That verse is SOLELY and SPECIFICALLY talking about God NOT reneging on His promises. That is the thing about which He "changes not".

See the NEXT verse for a continuation of THAT CONTEXT.

Mal 3:7 KJV Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

 

[oatmeal]

So typical of heretics to take scripture out of context.


That verse is SOLELY and SPECIFICALLY talking about God NOT reneging on His promises. That is the thing about which He "changes not".

See the NEXT verse for a continuation of THAT CONTEXT.

Out of context? Do you even know how to read what is written?

So are you saying God does change?

Jesus Christ his son is described as the same, yesterday, today and forever

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

If as you believe Jesus is God than God is the same, yesterday, today and forever.

However, since he is not God, but the son of God, Jesus would have learned that kind of stability from someone, the most likely candidate is his God and Father.

Yes, it is about policy, but to not change policy would require him not to have a change of heart about that policy. Since God is spirit and the eternal spirit

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Since God is eternally spirit but Jesus is a human, not a spirit, clearly God remained spirit and did not change into a human.

God is logical, unlike religious folk who take everything by faith because they believe God is a mystery

God's policy is that he is the eternal spirit.

If you read Hebrews 9:14, you will read that Jesus offered himself to whom?

a. himself

b. a separate entity, namely God

How can you ignore such clear delineations and distinctions between God who is spirit and his human son?

You have decided to be willfully ignorant or deceived, but fortunately, God can deliver you from that ignorance and deceit

 

[Right Divider]

Out of context? Do you even know how to read what is written?

I did read it as written and explained to you what is meant by it. Sorry that you cannot understand.

So are you saying God does change?

In some ways, yes.

Not in His fundamental nature as the almighty.

Jesus Christ his son is described as the same, yesterday, today and forever

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

That is also a reference to His deity, But I can see how your blinder would hide that from you.

If as you believe Jesus is God than God is the same, yesterday, today and forever.

You have the tendency to force your ideas on the scripture.

However, since he is not God, but the son of God, Jesus would have learned that kind of stability from someone, the most likely candidate is his God and Father.

:juggle:

I guess that you will forever avoid this scripture that dashes your dreams of a created Son of God.

Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

You also ignored that He is the creator of ALL things.

Col 1:15-18 KJV Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

 

[Bradley D]

Jesus existed before the creation of the world.

Yes, Jesus' divine self has always existed. But there is still only one true God.


“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God,
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:1-5).

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, Jesus' divine self has always existed. But there is still only one true God.

Divine means God. What do you mean by "Jesus' divine self"? [h=1]

[/h] “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God,
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:1-5).

Classic error.... note that it does NOT say that "Only the Father is God".

The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.

This explained and confirmed throughout scripture.

Here is an example were all three share the same authority:

Mat 28:19 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

"In the name of" means "by the authority of".... all three have the same authority.

 

[oatmeal]

Wow... speaking of a straw-man argument. No, we don't.

The doctrine of the trinity says NEITHER of those things. God the Son took upon Himself a human nature and human body.

Again, Jesus was WITH HIS FATHER before the world was created.


Why do you ignore this simple fact?


Again you lie.


Are you referring to John 17:5?

Both. Jesus did not stop being God (an impossibility) when He ALSO took upon Himself humanity.


You are quite confused. Since John 17:5 shows clearly and unambiguously that Jesus existed long before His incarnation, you are simply wrong about Him and His natures.


No, you've rejected a proper understanding of scripture for a lie about scripture.

John 17:5 only indicates that God had glory for Jesus prepared.

My parents had prepared for another baby before my mom was impregnated with me. They did not wait till the last minute before I was born to prepare for me

God is at least as smart as my parents, wouldn't you agree?

God is probably a lot smarter than my parents, wouldn't you agree?

Trinitians love to quote, "and the word became flesh and dwelt among us" that verse if telling us what trins like to say it says contradicts your pet verses.

Why don't you and your trin buddies get together and get your story straight instead of contradicting God's word and each other?

Since God is spirit and Jesus was not, Jesus cannot be God

 

[oatmeal]

So typical of heretics to take scripture out of context.


That verse is SOLELY and SPECIFICALLY talking about God NOT reneging on His promises. That is the thing about which He "changes not".

See the NEXT verse for a continuation of THAT CONTEXT.

That is right and one of God's promises is that God is spirit and that He is the invisible God.

Jesus does not fit into either category!

 

[Bradley D]

In the end the Son will hand over all to the Father.

"Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.…" (1 Cor. 24-25).

God is Spirit.

"God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24).

God can impart His Spirit. God imparted His Spirit to Mother Mary. Jesus was born with God's Spirit. God imparts His Holy Spirit to Christians.

The first commandment.

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me" (Ex. 20:2-3).

"Me" first person common singular.

 

[oatmeal]

So typical of heretics to take scripture out of context.


That verse is SOLELY and SPECIFICALLY talking about God NOT reneging on His promises. That is the thing about which He "changes not".

See the NEXT verse for a continuation of THAT CONTEXT.

How interesting that you prove the point of view his thread.

The context of any verse is vital.

I have shown in the context of your point that what you claim as unique to Jesus Christ is true of the entire church.

Why don't you accept what scripture teaches?

Evidently you are found disagreeing with God's word

You are calling God heretical

 

[Right Divider]

John 17:5 only indicates that God had glory for Jesus prepared.

Absolutely 100% NOT what is says.

I knew that you'd have to stoop to that sort of twisting of the scripture to handle that verse.

 

[Right Divider]

How interesting that you prove the point of view his thread.

The context of any verse is vital.

I have shown in the context of your point that what you claim as unique to Jesus Christ is true of the entire church.

Why don't you accept what scripture teaches?

Evidently you are found disagreeing with God's word

You are calling God heretical

Heretics like you will always lie about those that speak the truth.

 

[Right Divider]

That is right and one of God's promises is that God is spirit and that He is the invisible God.

Jesus does not fit into either category!

This is talking about God IN HIS ESSENTIAL NATURE. This does NOT preclude the Son of God from taking a human nature and body.

Just keep lying, it fits you well.

 

[Right Divider]

In the end the Son will hand over all to the Father.

"Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.…" (1 Cor. 24-25).

God is Spirit.

"God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24).

God can impart His Spirit. God imparted His Spirit to Mother Mary. Jesus was born with God's Spirit. God imparts His Holy Spirit to Christians.

The first commandment.

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me" (Ex. 20:2-3).

"Me" first person common singular.

:dizzy:

Is Jesus God in the flesh or not?

Does this passage refer to the Lord Jesus Christ?

Zec 14:1-4 KJV Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. (2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. (4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

[Bradley D]

:dizzy:

Is Jesus God in the flesh or not?

Does this passage refer to the Lord Jesus Christ?

"This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God..."(1 John 4:2).

"Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle." (Zech. 14:3).

That is God the Father Yahweh!

Then the LORD
יְהוָ֔ה (Yah·weh)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 3069: YHWH


Zechariah also prophesied the coming of the messiah: "I am going to bring my servant, the Branch" (Zech. 3:8).

 

[Right Divider]

"This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God..."(1 John 4:2).

"Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle." (Zech. 14:3).

That is God the Father Yahweh!

Then the LORD
יְהוָ֔ה (Yah·weh)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 3069: YHWH

Zechariah also prophesied the coming of the messiah: "I am going to bring my servant, the Branch" (Zech. 3:8).

Can you just answer a question directly? I don't want to play games.

Yes, Zechariah 14 says that the LORD will place HIS FEET on the mount of Olives. That is where the LORD Jesus Christ left the earth (Acts 1:9-12). It is also where the LORD Jesus Christ will return per Zechariah 14:4 just like the angel in Acts 1:9-12 said that He would.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zechariah 14:1-4 [KJVA])

 

[Bradley D]

Jesus was arrested at the Mount of Olives.

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus was arrested at the Mount of Olives.

What does that have to do with anything?

• In Acts 1:9-12 the Bible explains that Jesus left the earth from the Mount of Olives.
• The angel in Acts 1 says that "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."
• Zechariah 14 says that when "the day of the LORD" comes, the LORD will place His FEET on the Mount of Olives when He comes in judgment.
• Zechariah 14 also says "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one."

It's very easy to see that the LORD is Jesus Christ.

 

[Bradley D]

What does that have to do with anything?

• In Acts 1:9-12 the Bible explains that Jesus left the earth from the Mount of Olives.
• The angel in Acts 1 says that "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."
• Zechariah 14 says that when "the day of the LORD" comes, the LORD will place His FEET on the Mount of Olives when He comes in judgment.
• Zechariah 14 also says "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one."

It's very easy to see that the LORD is Jesus Christ.

Not Mount of Olives.

"When Jesus had led them out as far as Bethany, He lifted up His hands and blessed them. While He was blessing them, He left them and was carried up into heaven.…"(Luke 24:50-51).

"With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God's grace was so powerfully at work in them all" (Acts 4:33).

When when Lord Jesus is used in the NT it is not יְהוָ֔ה (Yah·weh) Noun - proper - masculine singular Strong's Hebrew 3069: YHWH. It is “Lord Κύριε (Kyrie) Noun - Vocative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2962: Lord, master, sir; the Lord. From kuros; supreme in authority, i.e. controller; by implication, Master.

The "Lord" in Zechariah is Yahweh God the Father.