Do Atheist Really Exists?

[Zeus]

And those who believe the threat to be substantiated ought to react to it. It's common sense, right?

No, it is only a gut feeling, not really common sense at all. Most people do not believe in Christ, thus it is not more common. People are free to react to an imaginary threat, a hypothetical threat if they choose to. It doesn't mean that a compelling case has been made.

This is why you walk out on a doctor who tells you to get an expensive MRI because you might have a tumor.

If I went in for some botox, yes! There must be compelling signs and symptoms of a tumor in order to justify an MRI, at least according to insurance companies. I see no compelling data in regard to hell.

I can't say I agree with your stance on this one.You have to agree on his definition of a triangle, you have to agree with his mathematical conventions. You don't have to read his biography, but if you don't know what a triangle is, you shouldn't comment on Pythagoras' theorem.How should I know? If it makes you feel better to consider your speculation to be highly probable, go right ahead. Just understand that it only holds water in your own mind.

This has been a very laborious discussion about semantics. To me "pascal's wager" is just a name for the claim that you should believe in god because of the notion of heaven and hell. That's it. It is an idiomatic dealie here. I do not care about Pascal or anything he said. I am just using shorthand that others have used before me. You hyave attacked the use of the term Pascals Wager, by grounding in history I care nothing about. It has jusyt muddied up the discussion. You win. I will hence forth refer to it as the black and white wager. Satisfied?

I can't say that no one does as you say, but I would argue that it is not common and furthermore that it is the product of a shallow existence of regret things that are not central to the human experience. I won't regret not eating more, or not having more sex, or any of the other things that are central to even my dog's life. I will regret not having more uniquely human experiences. I think all people would do well to pursue those higher things, regardless of any religious persuasion or lack thereof.

I think regret about sexual relationships is as valid as regret about parenting relationships. I'm sure a whole lot more is contemplated. If someone is dying young after a car accident, I am sure that person has regrets about having dieted and quit smoking -- that makes sense to me. Dying at 90 years old might leave someone feeling grateful that they eat well and quit smoking.

Many elderly folks regret sexual decisions they made in the face of their declining potency.

Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old time is still a-flying;
And this same flower that smiles today
Tomorrow will be dying.

The glorious lamp of heaven, the sun,
The higher he's a-getting,
The sooner will his race be run,
And nearer he's to setting.


That age is best which is the first,
When youth and blood are warmer;
But being spent, the worse, and worst
Times still succeed the former.


Then be not coy, but use your time,
And, while ye may, go marry;
For, having lost but once your prime,
You may forever tarry.

 

[fool]

Ahh Pascal's Wager.
Always fun.
So we have an assertation by our new friend Zetetic that Pascal dispensed with all other religions quite handily before laying out the wager between whatever brand of Christanity Pascal believed in and demonstrated the superiority of.
So, first off, much like a math problem if you find a mistake in the begining there's no sence in going any further.
Even if a mistake later on corrects the error and you get the right answer your math is wrong.
If Hinduism is corect then the things I do in this life determine if I'll come back as a dung bettle or Paris Hilton's chihuahua.

Now, having laid down that I'll hypothetically move on to the dilema itself because that's more fun than just not examining it.

Let's say that tommorow they outlaw Atheists and you have to be in some kind of organized religion that has a God under penelty of death.
I'd whip out my baptism certificate and my confirmation certificate and get down to the local United Methodist outpost and present myself as one of their own and how soon can I get my offering envelopes?
I supose after I established myself and got my membership card that kept me from getting killed I would find or even found a church that was a rubber stamp to keep me from geting killed, but you would have the same thing as you have with Pascal's wager, if I don't really believe it then how does going thru the motions change anything?

I'm reminded of an episode of The Sopranos where one of the mobsters has a nightmare about hell and he's worried he's going there, he goes to his Priest and confronts him "I paid my dough! I confessed my sins! I did my Hail Marrys and my our Fathers! I thought you guys had me covered on this!"

If there is a God worth a damn he's not going to care what card you got in your pocket.

He wants a relationship, not a card.

 

[icilian fenner]

I don't see anything wrong with your reasoning here. Granted that you are proposing a far fetched scenario. Does it remind anyone else of The Neverending Story?

Look, if I believed that it was impossible to determine if your proposed threat to humanity was real or imagined, it would make good sense for me try to find it in myself to believe for the sake of everyone else.

I don't know if that answers your question or not. If not you can rephrase it so I can do better on the next attempt!

-J

It answers it.

 

[Quincy]

Nope, I still don't believe in atheist. How can you convince me???
Just because you say doesn't make it so.

How easy that can be turned against you.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing. This is a worldly issue. I am talking about the difference between heaven and hell and I ask you where would you rather be?

Which ever place has hard rock, drugs, sex, and videogames. I'm thinking Vegas.

Your question had to do with earthly pressures.
How we feel and conduct our lives in this world has nothing to do with atheism.

Of course it does, you're bound to be more liberal when you aren't afraid of eternal damnation.

Are we concerned with a fraction of a second in time living a life of sin and damnation, or an eternal never ending life of happiness with God our Savior.

Your lack of belief in Atheistic worldviews doesn't make any sense. Why would we care about a god or savior?

An atheist is like a person setting on a barbed wire fence. Who must sooner or later decide which side to get off on. Now if you get off on the correct side you will happily live forever with God our Saviour. If you get off on the wrong side you will still live forever, BUT do you really want to shovel coal for eternity.

I'm from coal country, whats new?

 

[Zetetic]

No, it is only a gut feeling, not really common sense at all. Most people do not believe in Christ, thus it is not more common. People are free to react to an imaginary threat, a hypothetical threat if they choose to. It doesn't mean that a compelling case has been made.

If I went in for some botox, yes! There must be compelling signs and symptoms of a tumor in order to justify an MRI, at least according to insurance companies. I see no compelling data in regard to hell.

It seems that you want to resolve many facets of our conversation down to a matter of needing proof. I readily agree with you that we have no compelling evidence out there for heaven and hell. Getting into the particulars of the history of Christianity and whether there is an indication that God may have communicated to his creation through prophets is not appropriate for this thread. Whatever your views on religion generally or Christianity specifically, I don't believe we are supposed to be compelled by evidence into the arms of our creator. What evidence we do have does not compel belief so much as it compels the pursuit of faith for only some of us. Those of us with faith are foolish to accuse those without of being ignorant when the scriptures themselves are clear that faith is something God gives us, not something we choose. The only choice is whether to live the by the faith inside us, if we have it at all.

I don't pretend to understand it all, but for me it is as you say - my gut tells me that there's something to it. You won't find me telling an atheist that he is hiding from what he knows to be true. What an insult! When I reach out intellectually toward God I find myself feeling like I'm getting closer to what is true. However, closer is not the same as being there and I do believe that faith is all we have while we remain in this world. I do not blame people for telling me that faith is not enough for them. I know the feeling, I simply have made a different choice.

This has been a very laborious discussion about semantics. To me "pascal's wager" is just a name for the claim that you should believe in god because of the notion of heaven and hell. That's it. It is an idiomatic dealie here. I do not care about Pascal or anything he said. I am just using shorthand that others have used before me. You hyave attacked the use of the term Pascals Wager, by grounding in history I care nothing about. It has jusyt muddied up the discussion. You win. I will hence forth refer to it as the black and white wager. Satisfied?

I think you've hit the nail on the head and I do apologize if it seemed like I was trying to "win" something. What I've been trying to do is drive you to whatever your actual belief was. Like you say, you don't care about Pascal, though your very first comments were specifically about his argument. Now that we have moved on to the real issue, the black and white argument we must decide if we want to continue talking. I'm game if you are, but I don't want to appear overly contentious. Would you like to talk about the black and white argument? I suspect in this area we will agree more than we disagree, but who can say for sure.[/QUOTE]

I think regret about sexual relationships is as valid as regret about parenting relationships. I'm sure a whole lot more is contemplated. If someone is dying young after a car accident, I am sure that person has regrets about having dieted and quit smoking -- that makes sense to me. Dying at 90 years old might leave someone feeling grateful that they eat well and quit smoking.

Many elderly folks regret sexual decisions they made in the face of their declining potency.

Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old time is still a-flying;
And this same flower that smiles today
Tomorrow will be dying.

The glorious lamp of heaven, the sun,
The higher he's a-getting,
The sooner will his race be run,
And nearer he's to setting.


That age is best which is the first,
When youth and blood are warmer;
But being spent, the worse, and worst
Times still succeed the former.


Then be not coy, but use your time,
And, while ye may, go marry;
For, having lost but once your prime,
You may forever tarry.

It's such a coincidence that you would use this poem! I haven't heard mention of it since I was in choir in the eighth grade and we sang a song based on it. I still remember the song fondly and it is high on my playlist of shower serenades to my very tolerant wife. I think we can probably leave this argument because we will very soon get into serious semantic problems. I still think we are talking about love, not merely sex, and I suspect that if we were to bat it around a little we'd find that we don't have that much to fight about. Would you say that an elderly man who pursued the love of his life and spent that life with that woman is going to regret not having more sex with her? Even if he does, this is not the kind of sex we read about in Maxim magazine. That sort of sex is talked about as if it is a sport. You work on your foreplay like you work on your golf swing. So yes, semantics is at work in this one as well and I think we're unlikely to get anywhere useful especially as it pertains to the topic of the thread.

I will say that it seems we are both willing to give ground when necessary and I appreciate the diplomatic discussion we've had thus far in spite of the (hopefully) small frustrations we have caused each other.

Kudos,

-J

 

[Zetetic]

Ahh Pascal's Wager.
Always fun.

First off, are you following me? Glad to have you join this one. I think GZeus and I were just resolving our point of contention in a way we can both tolerate.

So we have an assertation by our new friend Zetetic that Pascal dispensed with all other religions quite handily before laying out the wager between whatever brand of Christanity Pascal believed in and demonstrated the superiority of.

I must object to the words you're ascribing to me. No sense going on defending myself, just read my carefully phrased statements regarding Pascal to see for yourself what I am and am not asserting. Since I have no intention of defending Pascal's dispensing of other religions I will refrain from giving you a response to all you said to that effect.

Now, having laid down that I'll hypothetically move on to the dilema itself because that's more fun than just not examining it.

Let's say that tommorow they outlaw Atheists and you have to be in some kind of organized religion that has a God under penelty of death.
...
I supose after I established myself and got my membership card that kept me from getting killed I would find or even found a church that was a rubber stamp to keep me from geting killed, but you would have the same thing as you have with Pascal's wager, if I don't really believe it then how does going thru the motions change anything?

I'm reminded of an episode of The Sopranos where one of the mobsters has a nightmare about hell and he's worried he's going there, he goes to his Priest and confronts him "I paid my dough! I confessed my sins! I did my Hail Marrys and my our Fathers! I thought you guys had me covered on this!"

If there is a God worth a damn he's not going to care what card you got in your pocket.

He wants a relationship, not a card.

I can't agree more. Again, if you'll go back through the posts you'll find me saying the same thing, though my rendition is not nearly as colorful. I don't believe that the insurance card in your pocket is perceived by god as true belief. I've always said that it is only useful if it motivates the pursuit of belief and culminates in a faith that is independent of the wager. At no time will you hear me say that the wager is "wonderfully sound reasoning" or that any kind of black/white heaven/hell motivation is fully sufficient for a saving faith. Honestly, I think the black/white argument is a bit like Al Gore's lecture on global warming. The shear terror of imagining a worst case scenario will hopefully motivate people to consider whether they should be responsible with their environment. However, if we found a way to keep our civilization from being threatened while still being reckless with nature I don't think we should do it. I think that if Al's talk leads a person to consider the importance of the environment generally and leads eventually to an appreciation of it apart from how it serves my own personal needs, then it is a useful argument. It is useful even if it is founded on false evidence!

-J

 

[Gerald]

I don't believe that the insurance card in your pocket is perceived by god as true belief. I've always said that it is only useful if it motivates the pursuit of belief and culminates in a faith that is independent of the wager.

The problem is that most people never move beyond the "insurance card" stage.

 

[Zetetic]

The problem is that most people never move beyond the "insurance card" stage.

This is so true. Jesus made many statements to the same effect. He essentially accused the organized religion of his day of being little more than a bunch of card carrying fakes. The problem with every form of monotheism, perhaps even every religion, is that of insincerity. Jesus's message was essentially, "Look, I gave you rules so that you would demonstrate your love and loyalty through obedience. Instead, you managed to obey without either and often only put up a pretense of obedience. So forget the rules. Yes, I want you to be good and yes I'm angry when you're not, but more than all of it I've always wanted you to know that I love you and love me in return. I think you've learned the lesson of insincerity and the uselessness of the law in bringing God and man together in love. So here I die and put an end to the system you have known. You are now free to love me without the obligation of obedience. My only demand is that your love and belief be genuine. You can obey all day long but if your deeds are devoid of true devotion I will count them as nothing."

It's only my poor synopsis of the gospel and it is by no means complete in every detail, but you can see that I whole heartedly agree that insincerity is a problem and I hate that so many are content to live there. I like the true atheist! I disagree with him concerning issues of faith, but I like him better than the guy next to me in church much of the time, because often times that guy is less genuine than the atheist. The Bible says as much when it talks about those who are lukewarm. I always laugh when Christians talk as if God hates atheism. God hates pretend believers! Atheists are one step away from faith, the pretenders are two steps away. There it is.

-J

 

[Quincy]

If anything, the left or right hand desires for a universal paradigm at whatever cost could be theoretically efficient at creating a superficial Utopian community, but deep down it would be a very hollow one. Without the opposition to create the discernment and value each side seeks it would become pointless. So if they did pass laws to state all denizens must profess a faith, most likely in the God of Abraham, most everyone will attempt to do it. In the end it will not be as meaningful or valuable when there is nothing to judge it against. I always find it funny when some righteous fella declares we must defeat unrighteousness, basically leading himself to path of lost identity.

 

[Gerald]

"Look, I gave you rules so that you would demonstrate your love and loyalty through obedience. Instead, you managed to obey without either and often only put up a pretense of obedience. So forget the rules. Yes, I want you to be good and yes I'm angry when you're not, but more than all of it I've always wanted you to know that I love you and love me in return. I think you've learned the lesson of insincerity and the uselessness of the law in bringing God and man together in love. So here I die and put an end to the system you have known. You are now free to love me without the obligation of obedience. My only demand is that your love and belief be genuine. You can obey all day long but if your deeds are devoid of true devotion I will count them as nothing."

It's only my poor synopsis of the gospel...

Don't sell yourself short: that's the best summation I've seen in recent memory.

Great job! :thumb:

 

[kafir]

:nono: Not possible; if you are right then we won't be anything.....Much less surprised. :idunno:

What if somebody else is right, and their god is really upset that you chose yours?

 

[Troublemaker]

Did this all just happen by chance or order out of disorder??

God's accuracy may be observed in the hatching of eggs. For example;
-the eggs of the potato bug hatch in 7 days;
-those of the canary in 14 days;
-those of the barnyard hen in 21 days.
-The eggs of ducks and geese hatch in 28 days;
-those of the mallard in 35 days.
-The eggs of the parrot and the ostrich hatch in 42 days.
(Notice, they are all divisible by seven).


-Each watermelon has an even number of strips on the rind.
-Each orange has an even number of segments.
-Each ear of corn has an even number of rows.
-Each stalk of wheat has an even number of grains.
-Every bunch of bananas has on its lowest row an even number of bananas, and each row decreases by one, so that one row has an even numbe r and the next row an odd number.

-The waves of the sea roll in on shore twenty-six to the minute in all kinds of weather.


God's wisdom is seen in the making of an elephant. The four legs of this great beast all bend forward in the same direction. No other quadruped is so made. God planned that this animal would have a huge body, too large to live on two legs. For this reason He gave it four fulcrums so that it can rise from the ground easily.

The horse rises from the ground on its two front legs first. A cow rises from the ground with its two hind legs first. How wise the Lord is in all His works of creation!


I will never believe people don't believe in a creator.
How do you explain all this?

 

[kafir]

It is very hard for me to believe anyone could not believe we have a creator.
I just think they are all lying, and if they are not lying don't they have a surprise coming!!
Any thoughts out there.
I am a newbie, I am sure this subject has been talked to death.
But I would like to know what everyone is thinking.

I am an atheist. I am not lying. I don't believe we have a creator.

As for the surprise, I assume you're referring to the hell I will go to when I find out there is a creator?

Maybe so. And maybe you are in for a surprise too, because you chose the wrong creator to believe in?

Or maybe we'll both just die, and neither of us will be surprised.

Anyway, that's what I'm thinking. Cheers!

 

[kafir]

So Troublemaker, regarding your post above which lists a bunch of things that seem too interesting to you to NOT have been designed...

How do you feel about the uninteresting things? The rot and decay that is everywhere. War and death. The things that don't happen to come in sevens, or have orderly arrangements. Our problematic biological systems that cause our bodies to fail in painful and embarrassing ways. The vast majority of the Universe that appears to be instantly fatal to life as we know it.

The human mind has a remarkable ability to find patterns, and there is undoubtedly survival value in that. But the flip side is that the brain also ignores the vastly more things that are not patterns. Otherwise we'd be overwhelmed with processing tasks that aren't important.

So we notice coincidences and good luck, but we ignore the rest. It's called "confirmation bias" and it's what makes people gamble and makes casinos rich.

 

[Troublemaker]

Hi Kafir,
First let me say, I did not pick that name because I am out to cause trouble. Trouble just seems to fine me, so it just seemed appropriate.

Thanks for your posts.

I am very aware of things around me i.e war and death. I would never blame that on my creator, from the time he created us and gave us free will,
we have abused and misused our bodies and the earth he provided us to live on.
Have you ever read the Bible? It is full of war and death.

We still have beauty all around us if we just let ourselves enjoy the world,
don't dwell on all the ugly around you how depressing.

I am sorry you feel that you are an atheist, don't you ever think you may be wrong? You have to feel so empty nothing to look forward to.

As for the numbers God loves numbers. Believe me I know not everything is in patterns if it were we would be living robots living in a perfect world. I don't even try to explain everything.

I don't live in a the lala land, I had a terrible childhood very abusive, people around me that I love dearly have all kinds of medical issues. No I can not explain it but I don't blame God for it. Do you? Is that why you don't believe in a creator?

 

[kafir]

The question makes no sense. How could I blame something that I don't believe in?

I really am sorry you had a bad childhood. Maybe if I had gone through what you did, I might feel the way you do. Interesting how our environment shapes us. Those of us born in the US, growing up in a predominantly Christian environment, tend to be Christians. If I had grown up in India I might be a Hindu.

Do I ever think I might be wrong? Sure. Anything's possible I guess. At least I made an effort to live my life with the most integrity I could. If the Great Whatever casts me away because of that, then that's its business.

A more interesting question might be do you ever think you might be wrong? You've chosen one possible god. The other choices are (1) no god, and (2) an infinite number of other possible gods - many of which, if the world's sacred writings are to be believed, are mutually exclusive. You are an atheist with respect to all those other gods. Do you feel empty inside, having rejected all those?

Don't feel sorry for me. I don't feel empty. I'll be honest with you: I used to feel angry, when it first sank in that we get a finite lifetime and then we're gone. But then I realized that even if I could live a thousand years, or a million, or a billion, eventually I'd still be gone.

So why not make the most of the life we have here? Why not try to help other people who are here with us, right now? My life has no meaning defined by some book or supernatural entity. I create my own meaning, and I enjoy it. That's how I roll

 

[Prisca]

How do you feel about the uninteresting things? The rot and decay that is everywhere.

Even these things are part of the order of things. Quite amazing, when you think about them.

War and death. The things that don't happen to come in sevens, or have orderly arrangements. Our problematic biological systems that cause our bodies to fail in painful and embarrassing ways. The vast majority of the Universe that appears to be instantly fatal to life as we know it.

As Troublemaker so eloquently put it:

...from the time he created us and gave us free will,
we have abused and misused our bodies and the earth he provided us to live on.

Think of our amazing immune system. Despite the fact that our environment has become more and more hostile, our bodies are able to fight and resist disease and contamination in incredible ways.

The human mind has a remarkable ability to find patterns, and there is undoubtedly survival value in that. But the flip side is that the brain also ignores the vastly more things that are not patterns. Otherwise we'd be overwhelmed with processing tasks that aren't important.

Could it be that we were created to recognize patterns? God, in His wisdom, created our minds to both recognize patterns and to filter out that which would overwhelm us. Our technology comes from copying that which God has already designed. The better we understand His creation, the more advanced our technology becomes - even when we deny that He designed it first.

So we notice coincidences and good luck, but we ignore the rest. It's called "confirmation bias" and it's what makes people gamble and makes casinos rich.

Mankind has a way of taking advantage of God's creations. Both for good and for bad.

 

[kafir]

Hm.

Troublemaker, I was hoping for your reply, because my question really was one that I would like you to answer. Answering honestly and reflecting on your answer might give you insight into how some atheists feel.

I said...

A more interesting question might be do you ever think you might be wrong? You've chosen one possible god. The other choices are (1) no god, and (2) an infinite number of other possible gods - many of which, if the world's sacred writings are to be believed, are mutually exclusive. You are an atheist with respect to all those other gods. Do you feel empty inside, having rejected all those?

 

[Prisca]

Hm.
Troublemaker, I was hoping for your reply, because my question really was one that I would like you to answer. Answering honestly and reflecting on your answer might give you insight into how some atheists feel.

In an earlier post, Troublemaker admitted to sometimes having doubts about his/her beliefs. Every now and then we should stop and take stock of our beliefs to make sure we haven't been led down the primrose path. When I was an atheist, I was always on the lookout for some piece of evidence that I might have missed. I was more interested in truth than I was in thinking I had everything figured out.

Eventually, the evidence against atheism piled up until I realized I could no longer cling to that belief. Now, as a Christian, I do the same thing. I examine what I've learned over the years. I take a look at the evidence and try to poke holes in what I believe. It can be a bit scary to think I might have made a mistake, but I always come away with stronger faith than I had before.

Every time I pick up my Bible and study, I find my fears and doubts to be unfounded. Not only do I have Biblical reinforcement for my beliefs, I have the results of faith in my life as evidence for the truth God has revealed to me. I hope that you approach your beliefs in a similar manner.

Proverbs 2:1-5

My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,

turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding,

and if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,

and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,

then you will understand the fear of the LORD
and find the knowledge of God.

 

[Troublemaker]

Thank you Prisca,
It is nice to hear from someone that is so wise and once walked in your shoes Kafir.

Of course, I think everyone has doubts ever so often, but the evidence around us as to a creator is overwhelming.
I think why did I even go there, it's because He has giving me free well and free thinking.
He gave me free choice and He is there for the taking.
He is offering us so much.
I do try to read my Bible everyday and it gives me a comfort to know I have made the right choice.

As for the other religions and false gods. Our Lord warns us of false teachers and tells us to search and find the truth.

I think that people without the true God, are still looking for HIM.
but have been lead down the wrong path, and they don't take the time to question or research.
Look at the Catholics they worship the Pope and pray to Mary.
The Mormons have their own Bible not the Bible of God.

You ask me if I am an atheist to them and feel empty, of course not..
I pray for them to find the truth.
It is hard for us to admit when we are wrong but God will welcome us.
I will pray for you that you find your way.

Can I ask you, how do you think we came to be?
The Big Bang or from the sea? I am just curious.
I am not out to attach you, I am just trying to understand.