Red, have you watched Rob Roy? What do you think of that film?
No. Go watch it again. Tell me what you think.
I prefer that you are you as well.
Have you murdered any of your children?
Everyone makes assumptions and judgments according to what is ok by them.
It's worth heeding what is right in God's eyes because we know from Jesus that not everything is EQUAL in the Law (eg tithing mint is less important than showing mercy ... so there are priorities in the Law about degree of importance).
Everyone agrees that killing is wrong.
Does God have priorities regarding the life that is being lost? YES!
Is the born or the unborn a greater priority to God?
(Surely the opinion of God is the most righteous and greatest opinion)
OK ... here is God's opinion so there is no point arguing with me over it. You are welcome to pray and disagree with God about it, but I'm certain that God will not change His mind:
Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
To God, the loss of an unborn results in a fine, while the harm of a pregnant woman results in equal retribution to the point of the death penalty!
One is a criminal offense while one is a civil offense!
God does NOT give the same priority to the unborn as He does to the born!
This is God's Law and judgment.
I'm sure people wish to argue with God about that or try to convince others that God's Law does not mean what it clearly says.
Glenda, I will not presume to argue with the Lord concerning His Torah. Thank you for posting these scriptures. I do not know how you read them, but I am quite familiar with the two ways in which they are read. One person sees these as applying to abortion and miscarriage, another sees these as applying to premature birth, and or miscarriage, depending upon whether or not the baby, her fruit departed her body alive, and stayed alive. Or whether her fruit departed, stillborn, or died shortly after her premature birth.
Are you aware of this common controversy over these scriptures and, if so, have you made a decision on which is the correct view?
If not, let me explain why I think that these passages do not refer to abortion. Abortion is a deliberate and intentional act. The men who were striving were not intended to hurt the woman and certainly not the baby. Why do I say this? The Torah has just explained the penalties for premeditated murder, and unintentional manslaughter, and the cities of refuge.
If it was the woman who died, from the accidental attack, the husband would become the avenger of blood, and within his rights to kill the man or men involved, unless they fled to the city of refuge in time.
Thus I think the Torah is explaining what to do in the case where men unintentionally cause a miscarriage, or premature birth resulting in death or injury to the baby in the womb. I think these passages are "all" about the baby, and none about the wife. We already know what to do if a man accidentally kills another person, or causes them bodily harm. I don't think the Torah is being redundant here.
The penalty, for the "baby's" person, is also life for life, and eye for eye, etc, just as it would be for manslaughter, except there is no provision for a city of refuge, when you take the life and the heritage of a man and his pregnant wife. Thus it is actually more severe punishment, and not less, as I read it.
In the best case scenario, the baby survives the premature birth, completely healthy, and the husband decides the fine for the traumam and potential danger and extra expense, now needed to survive and "cope"!
Does this make sense to you? You are of course free to disagree, and assume it is only talking about the woman, in the other "regards", as many interpret.
The one thing that seems very obvious to me, is that we can not compare an intentional abortion, chosen by a mother and performed by a "doctor", to this clear case of unintentional, and accidental, premature birth, or miscarriage at worst, as plainly described.
Do you at least agree with me on this point, and see it in a new way perhaps?
How do you adopt your own child? :idunno:Would anyone here support compulsory adoption? Some government official could just knock on your door, and inform you that you have a new son/daughter who you will have to care for and raise, and you can't refuse it.
It seems like there is a strong parallel to cases of rape.
So, what do you think? For or against compulsory adoption and why?
How do you adopt your own child? :idunno:
Would anyone here support compulsory adoption? Some government official could just knock on your door, and inform you that you have a new son/daughter who you will have to care for and raise, and you can't refuse it.
It seems like there is a strong parallel to cases of rape.
So, what do you think? For or against compulsory adoption and why?
Rape victims can put their children up for adoption if they want to.
We are not saying that women cannot forfeit their children to others. We're merely saying that they can't murder them.
Do you realize that a rape victim's child is just as much her biological child as any child could ever be?
Yes, Glenda, the child will have to face all of that. But, it is the parents' job to protect and, if need be, stand up for the child in cases like this.
The attempted suicide thing is one reason that I'd be against my daughter having an abortion. I know too many women/girls who had abortions and later felt so much guilt about killing their unborn children that they attempted suicide. Several succeeded. The ones who felt the most guilt (at least of those who told me about it) were rape victims. They wished that they had waited before making the decision to abort the children. With hindsight being 20/20, they knew that at the time of the rape they were not mentally stable enough to make such a decision. I don't think it's a wise thing for a woman who is already dealing with mental and physical pain of rape, including self-blame, to make a decision to abort her child because of the ones I've known who did so and later regretted it so much that they couldn't live with themselves.
Peace to you
Thank you for alternative possibilities.
I'm not assuming anything at all except priorities in the eyes of God.
It is not ok to kill.
Parents and offspring do not have 'equal rights' in the eyes of God right through scripture. People these days try to promote equal rights of parents and children, but that is against God's Law and causes many problems.
Parents are allowed to hit children while children are NOT allowed to hit parents in God's Law.
God prioritises parent welfare in the human and animal kingdom eg
Deu 22:6 If a bird's nest chance to be before thee in the way in any tree, or on the ground, whether they be young ones, or eggs, and the dam sitting upon the young, or upon the eggs, thou shalt not take the dam with the young:
Deu 22:7 But thou shalt in any wise let the dam go, and take the young to thee; that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days.
What God shows us is that God is a parent and parental welfare and rights come first.
The verses about a pregnant woman do not specify anything except fruit departing and financial compensation ... remember financial compensation in Torah is ONLY for loss! Children are the future source of financial benefit for the parent! Jesus clarified this law has not changed.
Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
When an animal kills an offspring, compensation fine must be paid (different to servant price)
Exo 21:30 If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him.
Exo 21:31 Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him.
Exo 21:32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.
Since God's Law specifies financial compensation for loss of an offspring, it must be assumed that the pregnant woman has in fact lost an offspring if financial compensation is involved.
That is not my concern, but rather the fact that God prioritises the welfare of the parent over the welfare of the pregnancy/foetus.
This does not alter the fact that killing is not permissable and I agree that accidents are different to deliberate, morally and scripturally.
I just wanted people to stop promoting the anti-scriptural errancy that a fertilised egg or foetus and mother are equal with equal rights. In God's eyes, the pregnant woman has priority regarding welfare and all else.
Also there is errancy promoted that all abortions involve tearing up a baby and that is untrue when drugs can expel a fertilised egg. Emotions seem to promote a smokescreen over clear facts and that is wrongful.
The pregnant woman has priority.
Killing is unlawful and killing also includes words as well as actions.
People often tear each other apart with words while pointing the finger at others who tear each other apart physically. According to God they equally have blood on their hands.
I love truth over traditional emotional errancy. If we stuck with truth and God's Law then nobody would be killed or torn apart by words or deeds. That is the best scenario.
All I have been saying, is that the victim needs compassion more than condemnation for any desperate action they may commit.
I wish everyone was blessed with supportive family and love as your family enjoys, but sadly this is a statistical rarity. It's horrid to think of a child under 12 being violated and COMMONLY lacking support and on top of that being condemned BY STRANGERS for her probable desperate actions. I'd just want to hug her and take her home and not to condemn her!
Agreed. Sorry I misunderstood and thought victims may be advised what choice they should make. Thanks and I agree with you.Yes. I know that, Glenda. But, advising a rape victim who finds herself pregnant by her attacker/s is not the best thing to do. That's all I've been saying.
That's fair enough.I just used my own experience with friends who have had abortions (most of them were not raped) to say what I felt needed to be said.
You are qualified from personal experience to do this and it's good you use your knowledge and love to help others. Honestly, I'm impressed and wish everyone had access to someone like you. You are rare, so sadly statistics show suffering of the majority in lack of access to someone like you. Even your daughter said that she knows she could not cope alone and would rely on you if this had happened to her so I look at other children who don't have you at home to turn to because these children certainly can't cope.Oh. I know this as well. I know that one reason my daughter would have such support is because I have been raped and had no one to help me get through it. Because of what I went through, I've helped other women who have been raped and know a lot of what my daughter would need to get through it herself.
My apologies ebenz47037, 2 seperate issues got mixed and I agree I asked you about your daughter and you responded and I appreciate your answer.One thing, though. You weren't talking about a 12 year old girl being condemned by strangers. You asked me what I would advise my daughter to do. I told you.
Here there are 2 seperate issues ... your daughter and then 'any victim of rape'. I'm glad you would offer them the same support as your daughter. It sure wouldn't be easy for you bringing up so many possible babies of victims if they all accepted your offer though, to take care of the baby until the mother was old enough if she could cope by then. You could end up with hundreds of babies if word got out! I don't think I would be game to make such an offer. You are rare.One thing, though. You weren't talking about a 12 year old girl being condemned by strangers. You asked me what I would advise my daughter to do. I told you. I would give the same advice to any victim of rape. And, I would offer the same support that I would offer to my own daughter. Knowing what it's like not having any support, I would be more willing to support someone who has to suffer through that.
Sadly statistics show that in lack of support from people like you, coping with and surviving the rape without attempting or managing suicide is hard enough. Aborting or not, is kind of incidental when the pregnant victim is suffering beyond her means of coping and since complications are common in child rape pregnancies, the focus should be on the welfare and survival of the rape victim since she may not even live.More than likely, aborting the unborn child would add to that woman's problems, though.