Did Jesus misquote Scripture

[Ps82]

Hi Lost Boy,
duh ... right there before my eyes! I guess I will accept that Jesus was quoting an OT scripture about the rivers of water... yet it is obvious that Jesus was talking about spiritual life-giving-water for the next verse explains that for us ... This was the same water he was mentioning to the 'woman at the well.'

I also still believe the mention of rivers of water flowing relates to the symbolism enacted at the ROCK of Horeb by Moses concerning the ROCK of salvation providing eternal spiritual life. The waters that literally flowed out of the ROCK of salvation ... also watered many Israelites and their herds, but the ultimate ceremony and miracle pointed to the Messiah and salvation.

 

[Lighthouse]

I guess my opinion counts for nothing.

 

[chair]

A few comments:
1. It is unlikely that Jesus was paraphrasing or the like. It is very likely that both Jesus and his followers were quite familiar with 'Scripture" (i.e. the Hebrew Bible), and knew a good chunk of it by heart. You can still find people today(at least in certain circles) who sprinkle their conversation with Biblical quotes. You wouldn't get away with an 'almost right' quote among people who know their Scriptures.
2. It is possible that Jesus was using a somewhat different set of "Scripture' than that which we have today.
3. The idea that he was quoting himself strikes me as, well, ridiculous. What does the term 'Scripture' mean in the NT?

 

[Ps82]

I guess my opinion counts for nothing.

Hi Lighthouse,
Occasionally I feel the same way. Your point about the translations and the different languages that may have been spoken was a worthy idea.

BTW, someone wrote earlier that they felt that the quotation marks should not have been used in John 7:39; however, the quotation marks are appropriate because John 7:39 was quoting the direct words that Jesus spoke. The marks have nothing to do with whether Jesus was quoting an OT scripture word for word.

I am prone to think that Jesus was generally referring to things said, particularly, within Isaiah 43 and 44. He was not quoting just one passage, but stating the truth found in the OT scriptures.

Isaiah 43 discusses the redeemer of Israel and explains what it is that people are to believe about the Messiah/Savior.

Summarized:
When Israel passes through the waters, HE will be with them, and as they go through rivers, they (the rivers) shall not overflow (over power) them. When they walk through the fire, they will not be burned. For HE IS (The I AM) the LORD their God, the Holy One of Israel, their Savior.

Verse 9 addresses the need to believe in him.
Let all the nations be gathered together, let the people be assembled... let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: OR - let them hear (what is said) and say, "It is truth." (IOW, let them say - "I believe.")

What were they to believe?
10 Ye (Israel) are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I AM he: before me there was no (other) God formed, neither shall there be (any other God) after me. (IOW, there is only ONE true God.)
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

They were to believe that HE was both their ONE true God and their Savior as well!

Isaiah 44 discusses the waters he (as the Savior) has to give them as their LORD.
verse 3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and (I will pour) floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:
And they shall spring up as among the grass, (and) as willows by the water courses (beds).

These words from Is 43 and 44 apply to what Jesus said in John 7:

37 If any man thirst, let him come unto ME, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of HIS (the Savior's) belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this HE spake of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive...)

Boy, these passages certainly do explain why what Jesus said to a group of religious leaders angered them!

Jesus told them, "Before Abraham - I AM." They became angry because they knew that in Isaiah it revealed that 'The I AM', is the ONE God.

 

[eveningsky339]

A few comments:
1. It is unlikely that Jesus was paraphrasing or the like. It is very likely that both Jesus and his followers were quite familiar with 'Scripture" (i.e. the Hebrew Bible), and knew a good chunk of it by heart. You can still find people today(at least in certain circles) who sprinkle their conversation with Biblical quotes. You wouldn't get away with an 'almost right' quote among people who know their Scriptures.

Hebrew culture put great importance on memorization, if I recall correctly. So you are right here.

2. It is possible that Jesus was using a somewhat different set of "Scripture' than that which we have today.

It very well could be.

3. The idea that he was quoting himself strikes me as, well, ridiculous. What does the term 'Scripture' mean in the NT?

'Scripture' in the NT refers to the OT.

 

[Ps82]

Hello anyone,

I guess my opinion counts for nothing.

Please, someone make some sort of remark about my post 24 above. I'm needy - I want to discuss with someone ...

 

[LostBoy]

Quick reply to Lighthouse: I didn't intend to sound like your opinion counts for nothing. It was a very good question, and I told you so. I hadn't considered the variations of language translations. As I pondered your answer, I formulated it as above. There should be at least some similarities to OT scriptures, and I don't feel stongly that there are.

 

[LostBoy]

To PS82-
Thanks for taking so much time to talk about this. There are certainly many references in OT that talk about rivers, and living waters, and God's spirit.
You posted:
37 If any man thirst, let him come unto ME, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of HIS (the Savior's) belly shall flow rivers of living water. (Sorry, haven't figured out how to quote yet)

This cannot possibly be the meaning of this passage. Jesus is not referring to his own belly here, or he would be saying that he believes in himself. He is obviously referring to the disciple's bellies here.

Anyway, I don't see the relationship to these 2 verses:

Isaiah 44:3 and John 7:38.

They both talk about water, but the correlation ends there. Isaiah 44:3 correlates directly to John 7:37, but not 7:38, which is what this post is all about.

Perhaps I am missing something obvious here. Sorry for the format of this post, I am still learning my way through the controls of this board.

P.S. Thanks chair, for mentioning the importance of oral tradition. I had completely forgotten about that.

 

[Ps82]

Hi Lostboy,
Thanks for your response.
Perhaps you and I are both seeing some truth. I see that it was from the inner most being of the Christ that spiritual life water came unto mankind... and you are seeing that after believers have received the gift of the spiritual life waters that out of them comes the power to further the kingdom here on earth.

However, I still see a direct relationship between Is 43 and 44 and John 7.
Is 43 was making it clear that the ONE God was both the LORD of Israel AND the Savior. God also made it clear that people were to accept this as the truth, IOW, people were to believe in him.

This is exactly the point Jesus was making when he said:
Jn 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, ..."

Now there was to be a blessing given to those who believed in the ONE LORD and Messiah. They were to be given divine water from HIM ... which symbolically referred to the divine spirit of the Savior.

Isaiah 44 discusses this divine water that the ONE God (as the Savior) was going to be able to give people.
In fact, Is 44 makes it clear who it is that will give the water. It is God the Savior, who will give this water to anyone who is thirsty and believes in him... and it also makes the connection of the water with the spirit that is being poured out from him unto men.

Lostboy, the clues are clear in Is 43 and 44 that help us understand what Jesus meant in John 7: (slightly paraphrased to point out similarities)

37 If any man is thirsty, let him come unto ME, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of HIS belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this HE (the Savior) spake of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive... from the Savior.)

Therefore, yes, the spiritual water first came out of the Savior ... but then the rivers of spiritual water, which he imparted unto the followers, then flowed out of them unto others.

Christ, on whom we believe, is the source of the water/spirit ... Human beings cannot muster up spiritual living waters on their own... They come out of the Savior's belly and then go from them unto other men.

 

[Adrial]

Greetings all, I hope you don't mind if I jump in on this intriguing discussion!

Many excellent points have been brot forward. First and formost is the fact that Jesus was speaking to the nation of Israel, such as it was, at this point in time. By this point, they already had a long history. Their culture was so tightly established that even under their yet again present captivity, they were going about their own way, in the midst of one of the strongest empires the world had ever seen.
Christ spoke to His people in a way He knew they would understand.
Water played a big part in the history of the Jews, and undoubtably they understood the referance to water.

John's gospel, especially, has much to revelate concerning water. The 1st sign recorded in chapter 2, this beginning of miracles, tells of how Jesus turned an entire WELL full of water, into wine. Bet they couldn't finish it all!
In Chapter 3 we have a record of a private converstaion with Nicodemus, concerning water.
In chapter 4 we have the astounding account of Christ talking to the women at the WELL.
I think these things are telling.
John's gospel stands apart from the other 3, it is not included in what is commonly referred to as the synoptic gospels.

Getting back to the Jewish history and culture, not only did they have much written, but so much that had been added to it,orally. Can you imagine all their idioism's? Before the Jews began to write things down, they had an oral history. It was spoken. There was an oral tradition.
This propensity to pass along an oral account, was indeed very strong in their culture. Keep this in mind. The had many figures of speech and an amazing lexicon of a language. Their nuances and ways of verbal expresssion, were highly established and evolved.
Jesus grew up in and was a part of this culture. He understood their ways of life, expression, religious worship, the nuances that existed within the Jews themselves, their differant sects, their tenacious dealings with their rulers, both the Romans and the Chiefs of the Jews. This was not a culture one could easily step into without assimilating. They were so unique and differant that well, they were basically incapable of assimimalting, as the Romans annoyingly knew!

These are the people that Jesus spoke to, that He understood, and loved! "If you had only known"......Luke 19.

A comparision of what was written, and WHAT WAS SPOKEN, is interesting and will be a rewarding study. Some prophecies were spoken and not written. Some were written and spoken. That which is spoken-'to rhethen' and "that which standeth written-'ho gegraptai", are by the holy spirit's divine usage two differnt things, and should be considered as such.

 

[brinny]

Hi, I'm new here.

John 7:38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." (NKJV)

Jesus quotes scripture here, but his quotation appears nowhere in the Old Testament. What gives?

what scripture is it you say He is quoting?