Denver Bible Buying a Church!

[Christian Liberty]

I guess when the Mark of the Beast gets administered CabinetMaker will willingly accept starving to death because the only method of doing anything will be tax-free, "illegal" black market trade.

I don't see the idea of obeying the law in all or nearly all circumstances as necessarily being Biblical. Romans 13 does argue for obedience to government authorities, but it also clearly limits their authority. If you apply the Golden Rule to Government, as I do, and assume tyranny is a bad idea, as Samuel does and as I do, government authority is limited even further. The Bible isn't necessarily a political book first, but where it does address politics, it is anti-big government in essentially every case.

 

[CabinetMaker]

So basically, because of one ambiguous line, you think everyone should bow down before the State?

There is nothing ambiguous about it. In fact, it is one of the more direct and clear lines in scripture. We make it ambiguous for our own purposes.

To what extent we should care about earthly treasure is irrelevant to the question. Just because you shouldn't be overly concerned with worldy treasure doesn't give anyone the right to forcibly confiscate your money. Admittedly, conservatives are a bit morally inconsistent at this point in that they seek to enforce morality on social issues but not economic ones. But I'm not a conservative, so I definitely don't have that issue.

Your heart is where your treasure is. You have to determine for yourself how much of your heart you can devote to earthly treasures.

How? Their picture isn't on the cattle? If that's the logic you're going to use...

But there is value in the trade. In the US tax code, you are supposed to report barter at market value and pay taxes on it. Of course, oly a very moral person would ever actually do that, one who understands from Whom governments derive their authority.

Which is logically impossible according to real economic systems. Then again, governnment imposed fiat currency is just another way they steal from us.

By definition, governments cannot steal. They have the God given right to collect taxes.

Just because we should put less value on earthly treasures... even if the command "Sell all you have and give to the poor" was applicable to every single person ever (Note: I don't believe that's the case) does NOT give government any excuse to take the money at gunpoint.

You decide where your heart is. And only those that are willing to give their entire life to Christ are expected to be willing to give all to Him. How much do you wish to withhold from Christ.

Maybe I do put too much stock in earthly treasures, although I'm not exactly rolling in it by Western standards. I'm also still a high school student. I've got time yet to figure out how to eliminate any existing flaws in my ideology. But there's NOTHING Biblical about unlimited taxation. The Bible clearly limits government to the punishment of evildoers, and it clearly limits taxation to less than 10% of GDP (And you should only go close to that if you want an "Almost tyrannical" government.)

That is twice you have claimed 10% is biblical but offered no support for such a claim. You cannot. It is not biblical.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I guess when the Mark of the Beast gets administered CabinetMaker will willingly accept starving to death because the only method of doing anything will be tax-free, "illegal" black market trade.

I don't see the idea of obeying the law in all or nearly all circumstances as necessarily being Biblical. Romans 13 does argue for obedience to government authorities, but it also clearly limits their authority. If you apply the Golden Rule to Government, as I do, and assume tyranny is a bad idea, as Samuel does and as I do, government authority is limited even further. The Bible isn't necessarily a political book first, but where it does address politics, it is anti-big government in essentially every case.

I agree. But the more we demand fom governments, the of our God given responsibilities we push off onto government and the more of our rights we surender to government, the more money they will require to meet those expectations.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I agree. But the more we demand fom governments, the of our God given responsibilities we push off onto government and the more of our rights we surender to government, the more money they will require to meet those expectations.

I certainly didn't push that onto them. Its true that a lot of people do, but they're wrong.

1 Samuel 8 claims that any king who takes 10% or more is a tyrant.

You believe that anything government says it owns, it owns. I reject that crazy theory.

In all seriousness, I don't know if you're pretrib or not, but let's assume you are in fact here during the Great Tribulation and the government passes a law saying nobody can buy or sell without the mark. Now, I'm not saying all sales taxes are the Mark of the Beast, but I would seriously be surprised if they did NOT use this mark to collect sales taxes, among the more important job of making people deny Christ. Those who won't either use black markets (And thus, by your definition of property ownership, "Steal" from government) or die. What would you do?

I simply reject the absolute authority of the state. You're taking an ambiguous text (Which logically wouldn't give barter to the State, even if you accept the most common explanation)and using it to defend the idea that the State literally owns all money, and only mercifully allows us to keep some of it. I reject this theory, it doesn't make sense, and its not even Biblical. There is nothing that the Bible CLEARLY gives to Caesar other than the punishment of criminals.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I certainly didn't push that onto them. Its true that a lot of people do, but they're wrong.

1 Samuel 8 claims that any king who takes 10% or more is a tyrant.

You believe that anything government says it owns, it owns. I reject that crazy theory.

In all seriousness, I don't know if you're pretrib or not, but let's assume you are in fact here during the Great Tribulation and the government passes a law saying nobody can buy or sell without the mark. Now, I'm not saying all sales taxes are the Mark of the Beast, but I would seriously be surprised if they did NOT use this mark to collect sales taxes, among the more important job of making people deny Christ. Those who won't either use black markets (And thus, by your definition of property ownership, "Steal" from government) or die. What would you do?

I simply reject the absolute authority of the state. You're taking an ambiguous text (Which logically wouldn't give barter to the State, even if you accept the most common explanation)and using it to defend the idea that the State literally owns all money, and only mercifully allows us to keep some of it. I reject this theory, it doesn't make sense, and its not even Biblical. There is nothing that the Bible CLEARLY gives to Caesar other than the punishment of criminals.

Reject away. Only you can say how much of heart can be on earthly treasures and still claim God is first in your life.

The mark of the beast is something I will never accept. And I will die for it. And I'm okay with that for to accept it is to openly proclaim your hatred of God.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Reject away. Only you can say how much of heart can be on earthly treasures and still claim God is first in your life.

The mark of the beast is something I will never accept. And I will die for it. And I'm okay with that for to accept it is to openly proclaim your hatred of God.

I honestly don't understand how denying that the government owns literally everything means that my heart is on earthly treasures. Now, its likely that to some extent, my heart is not always on God, but that's not something that would be fixed by accepting the nonsensical theory that the State owns everything.

As for the Mark, I'd die too if I had to. But what would you do in the meantime. Would you "Steal from the government" by buying things on the untaxed black market, or would you just starve to death?

I'd utilize the black market if I had to. My MO is not to refuse to pay taxes in general unless I have a better reason than just "I want to keep the money." I don't really want the conflict of motive that comes with that (I probably couldn't "Not pay taxes" to God's glory, it would almost certainly be selfish) and it would undermine my witness. So I still do believe, at least for me at the present time, that paying taxes is the right thing to do. My reason, however, has NOTHING to do with the government having any legitimate claim to my property.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I honestly don't understand how denying that the government owns literally everything means that my heart is on earthly treasures. Now, its likely that to some extent, my heart is not always on God, but that's not something that would be fixed by accepting the nonsensical theory that the State owns everything.

As for the Mark, I'd die too if I had to. But what would you do in the meantime. Would you "Steal from the government" by buying things on the untaxed black market, or would you just starve to death?

I'd utilize the black market if I had to. My MO is not to refuse to pay taxes in general unless I have a better reason than just "I want to keep the money." I don't really want the conflict of motive that comes with that (I probably couldn't "Not pay taxes" to God's glory, it would almost certainly be selfish) and it would undermine my witness. So I still do believe, at least for me at the present time, that paying taxes is the right thing to do. My reason, however, has NOTHING to do with the government having any legitimate claim to my property.

Who's "picture" is on the money? Who prints it? Who puts it in circulation? I never said the government owns everything, I said it mints money and has the right to collect taxes.

Who knows what will happen in the end times. I don't think we will have awhile lot of time between the beast comes to power and the time you will have to choose to take the mark. Frankly, I don't worry about it at all. I am on God's side and not ashamed to admit it.

 

[Lighthouse]

There's a lot in this passage. I frequently use this as an argument against high taxation, but if you'll notice, its also at least implied that any kind of compulsory military service, eminent domain, and initiation of war are violations of the scripture. Or at least, Samuel impplies that any leader who does these things is a tyrant.

I'm pretty sure God occasionally compelled military service. He also commanded initiating wars. Of course, the military service was mostly a preparedness measure. But I do agree that a tyrant does these things without justification.

This is probably the best libertarian passage you can find in the scripture, bar none.

If you say so.

Even still, I fail to understand how you can justifiably argue that ANY money rightfully belongs to the government. I'd agree with you that its a necessary evil, and that God probably did have Paul write Romans 13 because he was aware of the reality that you can't actually avoid all government, but it still doesn't seem justifiable to me that Caesar actually owns any of your money simply because its there.

The government doesn't own any of our money, but they need it in order to provide for us. But any use of it that is not for the good of the whole is certainly wrong.

God clearly sets a maximum limit here, no more than 9.9%. And that's if you want an "Almost tyrant." I'd rather stay as far from that as possible. I'd be more than thrilled with a tax rate in the mid-single digits (4-6%) but I still can't justify taking that money through the threat of violence, philosophically speaking.

I agree, more or less.

Just wondering, Lighthouse, how are you going to enforce the kind of moral laws you want to enforce with that little GDP? I'll even assume, since we haven't discussed them yet, that you completely agree with me on the issue of laissez faire economics and pulling American troops out of every foreign conflict. I still don't see how you can possibly put every drug user, homosexual, adulterer, and fornicator on trial as you have stated that you want to do, in addition to keeping the country safe from aggression by foreign powers and dealing with those people who violate the rights of others (Everything after the "In addition to" I agree with you that we need a government to do, everything before that is your views as I understand them, but I do not support the government doing those things) on less than 10% of GDP.

You assume this is as deep as my wishlist for a good government goes.

Here is a link to the laws.

And a bit more.

I didn't notice it, so in case it isn't there I believe a judgeship should not be a paid position, but rather filled by those who have other means of making money. I also do not believe lawyers would be necessary in such a government as the law is clear and easily understood. So not really any cost to trials.

It is no different today than it was in Jesus's time. The government can morally collect taxes for those programs that they administer. The government can determine is barter is taxable. And putting to much monetary value on our earthly labors focuses our attentions on earthly treasures.

Somebody's been sniffing the wood glue.

 

[Delmar]

It is no different today than it was in Jesus's time. The government can morally collect taxes for those programs that they administer. The government can determine is barter is taxable.

I should have made clear in the above post that I was not arguing with the following section of what you said.

A government would or t least cold levy a tax on the value of the deal.

And putting to much monetary value on our earthly labors focuses our attentions on earthly treasures.

Is putting a roof over my children's head placing too much focus on earthly things? If the government forces me to work for a third of the year or more to pay for government programs before I can provide for my family that is a crime! If you want to call that slavery rather than theft I will concede the point.

 

[Nick M]

It was a tricky answer to a tricky question.

He is prophecised to overthrow the Roman government, but not at that time.

If you want to justify paying taxes, Paul is probably a better source than Jesus in this particular case anyway, although Paul's support of government in Romans 13 seems to limit it to literally one function (Punishing evil.)

You can say another way as defending liberty. That is what government is for. You defend liberty by taking the sword to the wicked who would steal it from you. The common man does not get to kill the wicked. Only certain people can do that function.

its also at least implied that any kind of compulsory military service,

It is more than implied in Deuteronomy. He gives every reason under the sun to send a man home from war.

eminent domain,

That isn't so.

and initiation of war are violations of the scripture.

Neither is that.

Where do you get the idea that government should deal with infrastructure?

It is Biblical.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I should have made clear in the above post that I was not arguing with the following section of what you said.

Is putting a roof over my children's head placing too much focus on earthly things? If the government forces me to work for a third of the year or more to pay for government programs before I can provide for my family that is a crime! If you want to call that slavery rather than theft I will concede the point.

It is neither theft nor slavery, it is a system of our own creation. We, as a people, have determined what services we want the government to provide for us. A defense force. Interstate commerce regulation. Social welfare programs. Drug enforcement. Criminal investigation. Security. And the list goes on. Money to pay for those programs must to come from somewhere. They can't just print it; that is the single most inflationary thing a government can do and will destroy any country who tries to do it. By taxing labor and wealth and trade, the inflationary pressures are kept down. But that is the simple fact: whether or not we agree with or condone government programs, as a society, "we" have demanded them. And now that we have them, we must pay for them. This is not immoral, illegal, theft or slavery. It is something of our own creation.

 

[Doormat]

Mark 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Why number did Jesus limit it to?

He left it to them to decide what belonged to Caesar and what belonged to God.

 

[Delmar]

It is neither theft nor slavery, it is a system of our own creation. We, as a people, have determined what services we want the government to provide for us. A defense force. Interstate commerce regulation. Social welfare programs. Drug enforcement. Criminal investigation. Security. And the list goes on. Money to pay for those programs must to come from somewhere. They can't just print it; that is the single most inflationary thing a government can do and will destroy any country who tries to do it. By taxing labor and wealth and trade, the inflationary pressures are kept down. But that is the simple fact: whether or not we agree with or condone government programs, as a society, "we" have demanded them. And now that we have them, we must pay for them. This is not immoral, illegal, theft or slavery. It is something of our own creation.

The premise that, anything the masses demand is just, is lunacy, and certainly not based in scripture.

 

[CabinetMaker]

The premise that, anything the masses demand is just, is lunacy, and certainly not based in scripture.

And yet here we are. It is why this country separated from England in the first place. America is not a Christian country and never has been. It is comprised primarily of Christians and that has influenced our laws. But when America was founded it was founded in part on the idea that the masses could and should have an influence on policy.

 

[Delmar]

And yet here we are. It is why this country separated from England in the first place. America is not a Christian country and never has been. It is comprised primarily of Christians and that has influenced our laws. But when America was founded it was founded in part on the idea that the masses could and should have an influence on policy.

You and I were talking about whether there is scriptural basis for the government taking as much of our money as it pleases. Now you are pulling a bait and switch.

 

[CabinetMaker]

You and I were talking about whether there is scriptural basis for the government taking as much of our money as it pleases. Now you are pulling a bait and switch.

No, its not a bait and switch. It is scriptural to pay taxes. Scripture says nothing about how those taxes should be set up only that when we are asked to pay them, Jesus says pay them.

 

[Delmar]

No, its not a bait and switch. It is scriptural to pay taxes. Scripture says nothing about how those taxes should be set up only that when we are asked to pay them, Jesus says pay them.

Lighthouse showed you in post # 20 that a 10% tax is tyrannical and you promptly shoved your head back in the dirt.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Lighthouse showed you in post # 20 that a 10% tax is tyrannical and you promptly shoved your head back in the dirt.

Okay. What services are you willing to go without and what services are you willing to take over?

 

[Delmar]

Okay. What services are you willing to go without and what services are you willing to take over?

The government should be responsible for infrastructure (roads, bridges, air traffic control and probably disease quarantines) and defense (military and law enforcement). Family, church and charity should handle the rest.

 

[CabinetMaker]

The government should be responsible for infrastructure (roads, bridges, air traffic control and probably disease quarantines) and defense (military and law enforcement). Family, church and charity should handle the rest.

Who puts out fires? Who educates future generations? How much are safe roads and bridges, air traffic control, disease management, military and law enforcement worth to you? In other words, if 10% does not provide for the services you want, what else are you willing to give up?