Death and How to Comfort the Family-Part 2

[God's Truth]

ffreeloader

Here are many scriptures that say Jesus is the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;

John 17:26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.

All these scriptures tell us Jesus is the Spirit: Revelation 2:7, 8, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 14:13; 22:17.

 

[Gary K]

ffreeloader

Here are many scriptures that say Jesus is the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;

John 17:26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.

All these scriptures tell us Jesus is the Spirit: Revelation 2:7, 8, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 14:13; 22:17.

First off, several of your proof texts have nothing to do with the subject. Others of them are only "proof" to you because of your preconceptions. If we are to take those texts as being literal there is no Holy Spirit, nor are there three members of the Godhead. There are only two in your point of view.

Jesus denied your conclusions. He said the Holy Spirit is another Comforter. In other words, He cannot be the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit is another person according to Jesus' own words.
I think Jesus, as He is an intimate part of the Godhead, knows much better than you who He is and who the Holy Spirit is.

Last of all your position makes the gospel commission given by Jesus complete nonsense.

Matthew 28: [SIZE=+1]18[/SIZE] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[SIZE=+1]19[/SIZE] ¶Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
[SIZE=+1]20[/SIZE] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

According to you Jesus said to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Son.

 

[God's Truth]

First off, several of your proof texts have nothing to do with the subject.

You saying 'proof texts' sounds like a brain washed statement from false teachers; and so does your denial.

Others of them are only "proof" to you because of your preconceptions. If we are to take those texts as being literal there is no Holy Spirit, nor are there three members of the Godhead. There are only two in your point of view.

There is only One.

Jesus denied your conclusions. He said the Holy Spirit is another Comforter. In other words,

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God without limit. Do you really think Jesus was going to tell them he is going to come and live with them? They would think he is coming in the flesh. Jesus SAYS he will not leave them as orphans. Tell me, who but a mother or father can't leave someone as orphans? No mother and no father is a way a person is an orphan. Jesus says he won't leave them as orphans. That can only mean he is the Father.

He cannot be the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit is another person according to Jesus' own words.

Can't you read the scriptures? The scriptures say he is the Spirit.

I think Jesus, as He is an intimate part of the Godhead, knows much better than you who He is and who the Holy Spirit is.

Jesus says he reveals himself to certain people. So you saying what you just did to me is proof you have no idea what Jesus says and what it means.

Last of all your position makes the gospel commission given by Jesus complete nonsense.

God the Father came in the flesh. Even the Jews who keep saying only One God could believe what I say.
You think what I say is nonsense because you have no understanding. The Bible says there are people such as yourself.

According to you Jesus said to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Son.

That is your messed up false thinking that shows you can't be reasoned with.

 

[Derf]

Can't you read the scriptures?

Not just "can't you?", but "won't you with an open heart read the scriptures?" If you or any of us decide what to believe based on our own reading of scriptures, but won't allow the scriptures to continue to teach us, the scriptures then take a back seat to our own "wisdom".

 

[God's Truth]

Not just "can't you?", but "won't you with an open heart read the scriptures?" If you or any of us decide what to believe based on our own reading of scriptures, but won't allow the scriptures to continue to teach us, the scriptures then take a back seat to our own "wisdom".

You will never know the truth if you don't read the scriptures and do what Jesus says.

 

[Derf]

I will have to read that some more. The first thought that strikes me though is that those family members died under the old Law. Peter tells us that they are in "prison" or where the old testament good people went, and that Jesus went to preach to them and lead them to heaven. Between Jesus death and resurrection he preached to the dead. Maybe Paul didn't know about that.

I never went back to this to respond. Sorry about that.

Did Jesus preach to the dead? That’s the most popular narrative these days. I’m just trying to determine if it’s an accurate narrative.

Or is it more in keeping with other scripture that the dead can’t hear anything:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Which explains why:
Ecclesiastes 9:4 (KJV) For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

 

[Trump Gurl]

I never went back to this to respond. Sorry about that.

Thats okay, I have been banned for the last few months. LOL

Did Jesus preach to the dead? That’s the most popular narrative these days. I’m just trying to determine if it’s an accurate narrative.

Yes. Between the crucifixion and the resurrection.

1 Peter 3:19–20 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (KJV)

The Prision is Sheol, or Hades, where the righteous went after death

Or is it more in keeping with other scripture that the dead can’t hear anything:

Jesus had Moses and Elijah appear with him to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3).

 

[Derf]

Thats okay, I have been banned for the last few months. LOL



Yes. Between the crucifixion and the resurrection.

1 Peter 3:19–20 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (KJV)

The Prision is Sheol, or Hades, where the righteous went after death

If that’s the case, then Jesus only seems to have preached to those that died in the flood. What do you think He said to them? And What about all those Old Testament saints? Didn’t Jesus have anything to say to them?

Jesus had Moses and Elijah appear with him to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3).

And you think they were dead???? The three apostles didn’t think that. They were ready to build shelter for them.

 

[Trump Gurl]

If that’s the case, then Jesus only seems to have preached to those that died in the flood

Why do you think that? There were plenty of righteous folks ater the flood. My understanding is that there was the place where the righteous went, whether pre-flood or post-flood, Moses and all those guys, and then there was the hell of the damned which has not changed.

What do you think He said to them?

He preached the same Good News he had been preaching.

And What about all those Old Testament saints? Didn’t Jesus have anything to say to them?

That's who he was talking to.

And you think they were dead???? The three apostles didn’t think that. They were ready to build shelter for them.

Nobody ever dies. That is the huge argument I get into wen talking about Praying to the Saints. When I try to explain to people that Praying to the Saints actually asking them to pray for us, their response is always, "You can't ask dead people to pray for you, they're dead." I have to go on and explain to them that nobody dies. Period. When you leave this earth your spirit continues to live. You are either in the presence of God (heaven) or you are separated from God (hell). Nobody is ever plain "dead." The notion that when you die you are asleep and in some form of unconsciousness or unawareness is not true. When you die you are immediately judged for heaven or hell, but no matter which way you go you are not dead.

You actually touched on one of the scriptures I use as a rebuttel, that the three apostles were ready to build shelter for them.

 

[Gary K]

If that’s the case, then Jesus only seems to have preached to those that died in the flood. What do you think He said to them? And What about all those Old Testament saints? Didn’t Jesus have anything to say to them?
And you think they were dead???? The three apostles didn’t think that. They were ready to build shelter for them.

Your position is Biblical. There is Biblical evidence that both Elijah and Moses were alive in heaven during the time of Christ's life here on earth.

Elijah was translated alive to heaven.

2Kings 2:6 And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the Lord hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on.
7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.*n1
8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
9 ¶And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.*n2
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 ¶And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more:

Moses died on the borders of Canaan because of his sin of striking the rock instead of speaking to it as God told him to do when giving the coi water at Meribah (Numbers 20:7-12) and thus misrepresenting God. But he was raised from the dead and taken to heaven according to Jude.

Jude 9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

The above was taken from the ESV Bible.

 

[Trump Gurl]

There is Biblical evidence that both Elijah and Moses were alive in heaven

Not heaven, Sheol. There was no heaven yet.

 

[Derf]

Why do you think that?

It’s in the verse you quoted.
1 Peter 3:19-20 (KJV) 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Nobody ever dies.

Nobody is ever plain "dead."

I used to think this, too. Here’s the argument that changed my mind:
Genesis 3:4 (KJV) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

“Surely” (an adverb) is like your adjective “plain”. If God said she would die, and Satan said she wouldn’t, who am I to believe?

Further, you have correctly used the word “dead” to mean full cessation of life, and yet you say “No one ever dies.” Can you find a scripture to back that up, besides Gen 3:4?

John 8:44 (KJV) ... He [the devil] was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[Gary K]

Not heaven, Sheol. There was no heaven yet.

There you go again substituting Trump Gurl's words for scripture. Sorry. I don't accept you as an authoritative source. Bring me scripture. That I will listen to. Oh, and by the way, Elijah was not the first person to be translated alive.

Genesis 5:21 ¶And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:*n5
22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

You're once again contradicting scripture.

 

[Derf]

Not heaven, Sheol. There was no heaven yet.

No heaven yet????

 

[Derf]

Everything in post #49 is a fact. Your insult is not appreciated.

What I have stated was the position of all of Christianity up until the protestant reformation, and continues today to be the position of most of Christianity. For you to characterize the position of the vast majority of Christians as "Trump Gurls word" is rude and ignorant and false.

I don't know why every protestant needs to descend into that sort of mudslinging but it makes conversations impossible.

Goodbye - Leaving thread.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[Gary K]

Everything in post #49 is a fact. Your insult is not appreciated.

What I have stated was the position of all of Christianity up until the protestant reformation, and continues today to be the position of most of Christianity. For you to characterize the position of the vast majority of Christians as "Trump Gurls word" is rude and ignorant and false.

I don't know why every protestant needs to descend into that sort of mudslinging but it makes conversations impossible.

Goodbye - Leaving thread.

So, it's an insult to say that you aren't the source of all truth? How's that? Only God gets things right every time. So do you really think you're God?

As Derf pointed out to you the devil is the one that said Eve would not die. God didn't say that. The devil did. So, no matter how many people buy into his lie, it's still a lie. It's a lie whose source is quite literally the devil. That makes me very leery of accepting it for following the devil is the most self-destructive thing any human being can do. I've been there and done that. I know by experience that following him will destroy a person. If God hadn't intervened in my life I wouldn't be here.

One more comment on your post. Your entire argument is called the bandwagon fallacy. It's a very common one but nevertheless it's still a fallacy. You know why? Just because a majority of people believe something doesn't make it true. If it, the fallacy, were true it would mean that God doesn't exist or at least doesn't work in people's lives because the majority of the population of earth doesn't believe in God. What you did by using that fallacy is cut the very ground out from under your belief in God for that is the minority opinion on earth.

The Bible is your only reliable source of truth.

 

[Derf]

@ffreeloader
My issue about whether death means no activity at all for the deceased (even spiritual activity) is not the bible verses that are clearly for it, but those that seem to allow for the spiritual activity in some way. And much is tied to this discussion about what we should say to those that have lost loved ones.