Davar - Memra - Logos

[journey]

intojoy,

I want to thank you again for this thread. I'm trying to follow along in John 1 and find that I learn new things every time I study this beautiful portion of Scripture. In short, John 1 is a precious masterpiece.

 

[intojoy]

intojoy,

I want to thank you again for this thread. I'm trying to follow along in John 1 and find that I learn new things every time I study this beautiful portion of Scripture. In short, John 1 is a precious masterpiece.

Thank you. I'm not a scholar just a student. I did email dr Fruchtenbaum. I'll wait to see if he responds to Ben-yacov

He may very well do so as he is a Jewish patriot and dedicates his life to Jewish evangelism.

He is opening a year round bible school in upstate ny 2015 to disciple gentile and Jewish believers.


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

 

[journey]

Thank you. I'm not a scholar just a student. I did email dr Fruchtenbaum. I'll wait to see if he responds to Ben-yacov

He may very well do so as he is a Jewish patriot and dedicates his life to Jewish evangelism.

He is opening a year round bible school in upstate ny 2015 to disciple gentile and Jewish believers.


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

Brother, I'm just a student also. I give thanks for God's Word and the freedom to study it. I was just thinking about many in the world who risk their lives to attend a worship service or to even possess God's Word. God has richly blessed us.

 

[intojoy]

Brother, I'm just a student also. I give thanks for God's Word and the freedom to study it. I was just thinking about many in the world who risk their lives to attend a worship service or to even possess God's Word. God has richly blessed us.

Roger that. Thanks for mentioning them.


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

 

[intojoy]

The Aramaic word – מֵימְרָא – méym’raʾ (which is nothing more that the word – מֵימַר – méymar affixed with the definite article) appears 58 times in Targum Onkelos but never as a standalone.

In each and every occurrence it is the phrase – מֵימְרָא דִּייָ – méym’raʾ diYYa which means “the word for יְיָ” that appears in the text. The character phrase – יְיָ – is the standard abbreviation of the Tetragrammaton. The phrase means “the word for the Tetragrammaton.”

The purpose of using this particular phraseology is – when you see this phrase, and you are reading aloud, substitute whichever word it is that you use in place of the unspeakable Tetragrammaton; Adonay, HaShem, The Lord, etc.

The Hebrew equivalent of this phrase is – הָמִילָה לַייָ – hamiyllah laYYA. The Hebrew word – מִילָּה – miyllah is also the closest Hebrew equivalent to the Greek word λογος – logos.

The word – מימרא – mymrʾ appears 172 times in Targum pseudo-Jonathan. It appears 157 times in the form – מימרא דייי.

There is no hidden secret meaning. The Targumiym are homiletic interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures written in the Aramaic language. They are not Scripture. Jews are not allowed to write any of the “names” of God on anything that may be defiled or destroyed. This is why the phrase is used. The reader has to insert his own replacement word, nothing more, nothing less.

THIS MAY BE TRUE FOR THAT TARGUM BUT THERE ARE A GOOD NUMBER MORE TARGUMIM WHERE THE TERM IS USED FAR MORE FREQUENTLY AND IN THE VERY SIX WAYS I HAVE LISTED. THE BOOK SHOULD BE PUBLISHED BY THE END OF THIS YEAR AND I WILL BE QUOTING EXAMPLES OF ALL SIX CATEGORIES

A Fruchtenbaum


Posted from the TOL App!

 

[intojoy]

Davar - Memra - Logos

Note: A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. Plato, and the Stoics adopted this philosophy. Stoicism began around 300 B.C. Their concept of the natural order of the universe did not include a personal God, but a distant and remote one who did not interact with humans. In their view, a creator had instituted a natural order within which humans had to exist harmoniously. To the Stoics logos meant the divine animating principle pervading the universe, or a rational divine power that encompassed the idea of nature and fate. It was much like the impersonal, rational energy known as “the force” in Star Wars. • Greek logos was an “it,” and John's logos is a “He.” • Philo (a Jew who was a contemporary of Jesus) took it up and made it familiar to Jewish readers who were already used to the Hebrew concept of Memra. Philo used allegory to fuse and harmonize Greek philosophy and Judaism. Philo's LOGOS is based on a Greek philosophy of reason, going back to Plato and Stoicism. • Later church fathers took Philo as their guide rather than Jewish theology. Origen (200 A.D.) introduced allegorical interpretation of the scriptures to the church in an attempt to make Christianity more palatable to the Hellenized world. Allegorical interpretation has been the bane of both Judaism and Christianity, and can be traced back to these philosophical strains.

THE JEWISH FOUNDATION OF THE LIFE OF THE MESSIAH

 

[intojoy]

• In Greek philosophy the meaning of Logos encompassed two concepts, the concept of reason and the concept of speech.

Logos - Reason and Speech - Idea of God/Expression of God

• Most commentators build a case for Jesus being the fulfillment of the goals of Greek philosophy, in that by reason He was the very idea of God, and that by speech He was the very expression of God.


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

You can say that again dude

 

[JosephR]

its mumra! and he was the evil nemesis of the Thunder Cats.

Thunder,,thunder THUNDER CATS!!,,, HOOOOOOOOOO!

 

[keypurr]

• A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. Plato, and the Stoics adopted this philosophy. Stoicism began around 300 B.C. Their concept of the natural order of the universe did not include a personal God, but a distant and remote one who did not interact with humans. In their view, a creator had instituted a natural order within which humans had to exist harmoniously. To the Stoics logos meant the divine animating principle pervading the universe, or a rational divine power that encompassed the idea of nature and fate. It was much like the impersonal, rational energy known as “the force” in Star Wars.

• Greek logos was an “it,” and John's logos is a “He.”


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

Your right, the early bibles used the word "it" in place of "he". It was the KJV that changed it.

Christ is was an "it", a spirit. He was with God before the world was created. Himself being the first of all creation.

 

[chair]

Six Things the Rabbis Taught about the Memra



- The Memra was Distinct from God, but the Same as God
• This was a paradox that the rabbis recognized, but were unable to explain.

• John will explain this paradox in the concept of the Tri-unity, or Trinity.

Isaiah 45:1-25, 55:10-11 Hebrews 4:12

The Memra was the Agent of Creation

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (John 1:3 NASB)

• God spoke, and creation came into existence.

• Everything that we see in this world exists because of the Memra, the Word.

Psalm 33:4-6, Hebrews 11:3

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

What are these 6 things that the Rabbis taught, and what is your source for them?

 

[ttruscott]

...

• Most commentators build a case for Jesus being the fulfillment of the goals of Greek philosophy, in that by reason He was the very idea of God, and that by speech He was the very expression of God.

/QUOTE]

Greek paganism is Satanic,

Peace, Ted

 

[intojoy]

The Aramaic word – מֵימְרָא – méym’raʾ (which is nothing more that the word – מֵימַר – méymar affixed with the definite article) appears 58 times in Targum Onkelos but never as a standalone.

In each and every occurrence it is the phrase – מֵימְרָא דִּייָ – méym’raʾ diYYa which means “the word for יְיָ” that appears in the text. The character phrase – יְיָ – is the standard abbreviation of the Tetragrammaton. The phrase means “the word for the Tetragrammaton.”

The purpose of using this particular phraseology is – when you see this phrase, and you are reading aloud, substitute whichever word it is that you use in place of the unspeakable Tetragrammaton; Adonay, HaShem, The Lord, etc.

The Hebrew equivalent of this phrase is – הָמִילָה לַייָ – hamiyllah laYYA. The Hebrew word – מִילָּה – miyllah is also the closest Hebrew equivalent to the Greek word λογος – logos.

The word – מימרא – mymrʾ appears 172 times in Targum pseudo-Jonathan. It appears 157 times in the form – מימרא דייי.

There is no hidden secret meaning. The Targumiym are homiletic interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures written in the Aramaic language. They are not Scripture. Jews are not allowed to write any of the “names” of God on anything that may be defiled or destroyed. This is why the phrase is used. The reader has to insert his own replacement word, nothing more, nothing less.

When David uses this Word what's the meanin?

"In thy Memra do I put my trust"

If what you say is true and Memra is used by the Jews so as to protect G-d's name, you've made my point in this thread.

 

[intojoy]

...

• Most commentators build a case for Jesus being the fulfillment of the goals of Greek philosophy, in that by reason He was the very idea of God, and that by speech He was the very expression of God.

/QUOTE]

Greek paganism is Satanic,

Peace, Ted

The Memra is the Spirit of God's power in action. Whenever God performs His actions like creation, it is by His Memra His breath.
The Memra became flesh, the active power of God became flesh and dwelt among us and He is the God Man Messiah Yeshua

 

[intojoy]

The commentaries focused on logos and trying to explain the Hebrew God Man thru greek culture fail to see John's ultimate statement in john 1

That Yeshua is God who added humanity to Himself.

 

[patrick jane]

:ha:

The Memra is the Spirit of God's power in action. Whenever God performs His actions like creation, it is by His Memra His breath.
The Memra became flesh, the active power of God became flesh and dwelt among us and He is the God Man Messiah Yeshua

i like fancy words like memra. what, am i supposed to look that up ? let's call God's Spirit lskhgk otyu - ist it different now ? well, yeah, cuz i just dropped a word that you never heard

 

[steko]

:ha:

i like fancy words like memra. what, am i supposed to look that up ? let's call God's Spirit lskhgk otyu - ist it different now ? well, yeah, cuz i just dropped a word that you never heard

'memra' is the Aramaic equivalent to the Hebrew 'dabar' and the Greek 'logos'.

The Aramaic Targums were used in first century synagogues and the word was used in such a way as to assign personhood to it, just as John does in John 1:1-5 and 1:14 with the word 'logos'.

 

[intojoy]

John is writing to Jews

 

[intojoy]

Because John is writing to a jewish audiance he uses logos because greek is the lingo but no greek word carries the theological meaning that Memra brings. Check the context - Jesus is the Breath of God made flesh Jesus is God with us.
The logos that denotes the "concept of thought" to the Greek philosopher has zero to do with what John writes - zero.

 

[steko]

John is writing to Jews

I think that John was writing to a wider audience and wrote his gospel in the 90's.

 

[steko]

Because John is writing to a jewish audiance he uses logos because greek is the lingo but no greek word carries the theological meaning that Memra brings. Check the context - Jesus is the Breath of God made flesh Jesus is God with us.
The logos that denotes the "concept of thought" to the Greek philosopher has zero to do with what John writes - zero.

I have no doubt that John packed Hebrew concepts into the Greek 'logos'.


I was actually responding to Patrick Jane and felt that I was actually basically in harmony with your position, which I think I still am.