Creation vs. Evolution

[nodelink]

Jesus Christ (dates approximately 3 B.C. to 30 A.D.) was God Incarnate in human flesh. Jesus provided special and supernatural revelation about God not provided through nature and natural revelation. The words and works of Jesus Christ were marvelous and wonderful. Jesus was crucified and died as a atonement for sin that He might redeem those who would become adopted children of God. Jesus rose from the dead which no one else had yet or has yet done. The historical Jesus is verifiable. Let doubters and disputers carry the burden of proof to demonstrate otherwise.

 

[alwight]

Jesus Christ (dates approximately 3 B.C. to 30 A.D.) was God Incarnate in human flesh. Jesus provided special and supernatural revelation about God not provided through nature and natural revelation. The words and works of Jesus Christ were marvelous and wonderful. Jesus was crucified and died as a atonement for sin that He might redeem those who would become adopted children of God. Jesus rose from the dead which no one else had yet or has yet done. The historical Jesus is verifiable. Let doubters and disputers carry the burden of proof to demonstrate otherwise.

I don't have a problem with an historical Jesus, but I rather suspect that evangelists have added their own supernatural embellishments and dramatized enhancements in their later re-telling.

 

[nodelink]

I don't have a problem with an historical Jesus, but I rather suspect that evangelists have added their own supernatural embellishments and dramatized enhancements in their later re-telling.

Yes, Pharisees and hypocrites and deceivers exist in the guise of a false Christian identity. Lord, have mercy upon us that we be without guile ourselves.

Jesus contended with Phrarisees and warned about them extensively.

It seems to me that conventional science needs more iconoclasts in their community who contend against conventional explanations.

How does physics show entropy to be increasing while biology claims that entropy is decreasing?

Why do conventional astronomers continue to talk about hydrogen atoms spread throughout the universe when the vast majority of matter in the universe is electrically-charged plasma and not electrically-balanced atoms?

Special pleading is attributable to atheists. Historically, the atheist population has been small while the pervasive religious position has been theistic. The identity of God has ranged from polytheism to pantheism to multiple streams of monotheism but atheism has been the exception to the pervasive worldview of theism.

 

[The Barbarian]

Alwight, thanks for the response.

Where would evolution gets its purpose and direction?

Same place gravity gets its purpose and direction.

Natural selection kills but it doesn't create.

Selecting which genes will be available in the next generation for further evolution seem like a pretty creative thing.

None of this has anything at all to do with atheism. God just did a much better job of creation than creationists are willing to admit.

 

[nodelink]

Same place gravity gets its purpose and direction.

Selecting which genes will be available in the next generation for further evolution seem like a pretty creative thing.

Genes still need to be designed and developed. How does that happen?

Did the way that any of us lived our younger years impact the genes that we are passing to our offspring?

None of this has anything at all to do with atheism. God just did a much better job of creation than creationists are willing to admit.

Conventional science talks about "junk DNA" that appears to have no purpose. Could it be that the Intelligent Designer placed "dormant genes" into the genetic code that would express themselves in later generations? This is speculation.

The genome of the single-cell amoeba is 100+x times larger than the human genome. How did that happen?

Source: Sizing up genomes: Amoeba is king

 

[alwight]

How does physics show entropy to be increasing while biology claims that entropy is decreasing?

The Earth gets energy from the sun and while that goes on, and is an open system, entropy will decrease without contradicting the laws of thermodynamics.

Why do conventional astronomers continue to talk about hydrogen atoms spread throughout the universe when the vast majority of matter in the universe is electrically-charged plasma and not electrically-balanced atoms?

Is that really what astronomers talk about? :think:
Maybe we'll know more about dark matter soon since it seems to account for most of the gravity in the universe. Mysteries and unknowns don't require assumptions of gods or creators imo.

Special pleading is attributable to atheists. Historically, the atheist population has been small while the pervasive religious position has been theistic. The identity of God has ranged from polytheism to pantheism to multiple streams of monotheism but atheism has been the exception to the pervasive worldview of theism.

"Of the British men surveyed, 54% said they were atheists or agnostics compared with only 34% of women."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30910342

But why would I simply accept a Judeo Christian idea as default when a real god/creator may well be something rather other than anthropomorphic?
If a real god/creator exists but is unknowable then I don't think it helps me to imagine one of my own choosing.

 

[patrick jane]

The Earth gets energy from the sun and while that goes on, and is an open system, entropy will decrease without contradicting the laws of thermodynamics.

Is that really what astronomers talk about? :think:
Maybe we'll know more about dark matter soon since it seems to account for most of the gravity in the universe. Mysteries and unknowns don't require assumptions of gods or creators imo.



"Of the British men surveyed, 54% said they were atheists or agnostics compared with only 34% of women."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30910342

But why would I simply accept a Judeo Christian idea as default when a real god/creator may well be something rather other than anthropomorphic?
If a real god/creator exists but is unknowable then I don't think it helps me to imagine one of my own choosing.

you don't have to accept any teachings or faiths. it's just that when you get finished (if), you WILL conclude that God Is Real. then you'll have some catching up to do on what you should be contemplating and understanding. i don't know if you're atheist or what your beliefs are, but many have come before you with the same perspective. just another crazy example; if you shredded an entire set of encyclopedias and dropped them from a plane,and if they all arranged themselves back to the original texts, that still doesn't come close to the mathematical chances of all of this to just happen. your pursuit of earthly, purely scientific explanations if fruitless. egotistical - selfish. perhaps everyone else is "brainwashed" and the real "free-thinkers" are people like you. you're too smart to get caught up in all that "bible" stuff. unfortunately, if you take a quick overview of purported "christians" you know personally, you may easily conclude that most Christians are foolish and contradictory. i know i did. then i went deeper, ON MY OWN. that's the only way it worked for me personally. to each his own. God Bless ! ! ! -

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian, regarding where evolution gets purpose and direction:
Same place gravity gets its purpose and direction.

Selecting which genes will be available in the next generation for further evolution seem like a pretty creative thing.

Genes still need to be designed and developed.

Never saw anything designed in nature. Humans sometimes design genes, but they never seem to work as well as the ones God did naturally.

How does that happen?

Designing a gene requires taking an existing gene and modifying it to some specified purpose. The natural way is for an existing gene, usually a duplicate of the original, to mutate repeatedly in the population, each time being preserved or removed by natural selection. At some point, it might become useful in a new way. Mostly, it doesn't, and just becomes yet another functional allele of the gene. That's why we have so many allles for each gene, even though we all came from a single pair of humans. The rest evolved over time. But not by design; God is a lot better than that.

Did the way that any of us lived our younger years impact the genes that we are passing to our offspring?

Maybe, but usually, just random variation happens. You have quite a number of mutations neither of your parents had.

Barbarian observes:
None of this has anything at all to do with atheism. God just did a much better job of creation than creationists are willing to admit.

Conventional science talks about "junk DNA"

Mostly, creationists do. The scientific term is "non-coding DNA." Some of it is junk; experiments in animals and plants show that huge stretches of non-coding DNA can be lost without noticable effect on the organism. But as far back as the 1960s, scientists were finding that some non-coding DNA has other functions. The problem is that creationists seem to think that if any of it is junk, then all of it has to be junk. That's not the case.

that appears to have no purpose. Could it be that the Intelligent Designer placed "dormant genes" into the genetic code that would express themselves in later generations?

No, it's more basic than that. He created, over millions of years, a genetic system that had built into it, the potential for almost limitless variety. The system can actually build new genes out of old genetic material, including non-coding DNA.

He uses nature for most things in this world, and that's a good example.

This is speculation.

There's excellent evidence for the innate variability of DNA, and for the evolution of new alleles in the system He created.

The genome of the single-cell amoeba is 100+x times larger than the human genome. How did that happen?

Gene duplication. Amoebae vary a lot in the amount of DNA, depending on the kind it is. They aren't a single taxon, but are found in various lines of unicellular eukaryotes, and many are quite distantly related to each other. Unless duplication results in duplicated chromosomes, it doesn't usually cause any problems. Usually.

 

[Mark SeaSigh]

Barbarians speaks to Mark and Patrick in the Third Person; Just like a Robot.

: P

Loser. Let Go, of Evolution.

Or, Post Proof of "Common Descent" like Darwin's Theory Suggests.



=M=

 

[patrick jane]

Barbarians speaks to Mark and Patrick in the Third Person; Just like a Robot.

: P

Loser. Let Go, of Evolution.

Or, Post Proof of "Common Descent" like Darwin's Theory Suggests.



=M=

he's not defending evolution or creationism, per se. he's demonstrating in biological terms the Greatness of God, i think. that's why God, nature, science and all things go straight back to God. Always. to go down to the most basic level. we ALL want to LIVE. we ALL want to KNOW. either that, or we block it out. answers. now. some people just want things to be over when we die. no more. nothing. and they want others to have that YOLO attitude. get all you can in this life. feel good. then feel better. inner peace and contentment can be obtained. alot of folks never find it. every single person on the planet lives within their own layer of reality. our own little world. when worlds collide - :argue:

 

[Mark SeaSigh]

The natural way is for an existing gene, usually a duplicate of the original, to mutate repeatedly in the population, each time being preserved or removed by natural selection. At some point, it might become useful in a new way. Mostly, it doesn't, and just becomes yet another functional allele of the gene. That's why we have so many allles for each gene, even though we all came from a single pair of "humans". The rest evolved over time. But not by design; God is a lot better than that.

Wait Evol!!!

Don't call your Mom!!! : )

When you say "Humans" in this Sentence, what are you referring to?

Do you Mean "Humans" like; "Humans that Contain all the Same Functional Anatomy that We Do Today?": or, "What Evols think Early Humanoids Looked Like?"...?


=M=


Just a Wonderment.

: D

Barbie; do you believe that Creation was Put together by the Various "Forces" in this Universe?




Were your "First Two Humans", capable of "Naming all the Animals in Nature"?

( Bible says "People" could walk and Talk from the Beginning, since they were created. The Catholic Church is working on a Different Theory, Barbie is just full of Masonic/Popery Non-Science. )

A thought that Hippies thought of Originally.

That man was an Animal, and then learned how to walk and talk; after eating "Something"; Contrarily However, the Word of God states that Humans had "named all the Original Animal forms", before they ate from the Tree.

(Which in My Opinion, Barbie's Masonic/Popery Stinkin' Non-Biblical theories about God's Word; is a far different tale than what the Bible truely Explains. )


In Short;

The Catholic Church is a Bunch of Liars, and Always has Been; The Roman Catholic Church is a World Power: they may be the Ones who are Placing all the Garbage on the Television that Looks like Masonic/Popery.

Masonic/Popery - Things that Pertain, and Sometimes mix the RCC's and Masonic false teachings about the Bible, and Place it in the Public Eye. { Bleeding Books, Bleeding Statues, People Praying to Santa, People Praying to Mary, People Confessing sins to a Man he calls "father", Witchcraft, and My Personal Favorite: "Catholic Priests that Have "Magic Powers", ( See the Show "Sleepy Hollow"; IT's Hilarious!) }

Women Never Weighed a "Feathers Weight"; Wake Up Catholics.

Your Organization is responsible for Thousands of Deaths of Women and Men; Who may have been Crazy, but Probably not "Magical Witch Women or Men".

Keep trying, though.


"Stop Paying Catholic Dues, Now; If you do in the First Place, of Course!"

 

[alwight]

you don't have to accept any teachings or faiths. it's just that when you get finished (if), you WILL conclude that God Is Real. then you'll have some catching up to do on what you should be contemplating and understanding. i don't know if you're atheist or what your beliefs are, but many have come before you with the same perspective. just another crazy example; if you shredded an entire set of encyclopedias and dropped them from a plane,and if they all arranged themselves back to the original texts, that still doesn't come close to the mathematical chances of all of this to just happen.

That just seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of the odds imo.
The odds of any close variation of what actually did happen, but which in fact didn't, would all be just as fantastic but nevertheless something must happen given that something could and did.
Given that life began and evolves then the odds of any of current life being here now are probably also about as next to zip as makes no difference. But yet despite those crazy odds something nevertheless has to be around today, at this end of evolution, because we evidentially know it does.
Someone must win the lottery.

We are only here now, by chance imo, because we can be here, not because we were an entity in the distant past to which rational odds of our appearance now could even be applied.
Otoh would the odds against any of us being here now be any different, as individuals, if it took a specific God to create us rather than it happening solely by evolution?

your pursuit of earthly, purely scientific explanations if fruitless. egotistical - selfish. perhaps everyone else is "brainwashed" and the real "free-thinkers" are people like you. you're too smart to get caught up in all that "bible" stuff. unfortunately, if you take a quick overview of purported "christians" you know personally, you may easily conclude that most Christians are foolish and contradictory. i know i did. then i went deeper, ON MY OWN. that's the only way it worked for me personally. to each his own. God Bless ! ! ! -

Perhaps some people find that their beliefs matter more than a possible harsher reality? If so believe away.
I wouldn't have a problem with any religion that was evidentially true, but since none are imo then the odds of one of them actually being true are probably just as great as those mentioned above. lain:

 

[patrick jane]

hey =M= you can put those songs on this thread - and that'll be 5 hail marys !

 

[Mark SeaSigh]

AL;

What are "The Odds" of that happening?

A Universe which is Capable of Containing super-conscious art and Design; what are the Chances of that "Happening" from "No Thought"?

After all, you did just say to PJ;

That just seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of the odds imo.

Oh, Forget a Universe where "dreaming", and "Free Will" is a Possibility; If you find those Odds, let me know though Obviously, but: What are the Chances that a Universe Could Ever Exist, which just can Support it's own Physical Constants, without Collapsing Back in on Itself?




( Do you know? )

 

[Mark SeaSigh]

hey =M= you can put those songs on this thread - and that'll be 5 hail marys !

The Catholic Evolutionists, and Atheists are going to need some "Hail Mary's" to get them out of this one; Not that I believe that "Hail Mary's" do anything, given the Bible does not Mention a Single one.

: )

Ugh, Furthermore; I do believe that people Perform the "Bunny Hop" known as "Hail Mary's", like I believe People do them in reality, and they believe in them: I'm just saying, I don't think/believe the "Squat Thrusts" or hand Motions are "doing anything" for you "Catholics".


=M=


Now What, Evols?

 

[The Barbarian]

Hey Mark, you still haven't shown me those two major groups that scientists say are evolutionarily connected, that don't have a transitional. Since you keep saying there aren't any transitionals at all, this should be pretty easy for you.

But you keep stalling. Why is that?

 

[alwight]

AL;

What are "The Odds" of that happening?

A Universe which is Capable of Containing super-conscious art and Design; what are the Chances of that "Happening" from "No Thought"?

After all, you did just say to PJ;

Originally Posted by AL
That just seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of the odds imo.

Oh, Forget a Universe where "dreaming", and "Free Will" is a Possibility; What are the Chances that a Universe Could Ever Exist, which just can Support it's own Physical Constants, without Collapsing Back in on Itself?




( Do you know? )

Are you an astro or theoretical physicist Mark?
I'm not btw, but I can accept what is evidentially true without having to add fantasy or a very specific supernatural entity into the mix.
If you are then by all means take it up with your colleagues.

 

[Mark SeaSigh]

Oh, well in that case AL;

That just seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of the odds imo.

=M=


You seemed to have them, If you believe in a "Multi-Universe" Theory; In Order to help you accept Fine-Tuned reality in Nature and "the Known Universe":

What are the Chances that "Just One" Single Universe would Occur, which could Support Itself from collapsing in on Itself without an All Powerful God Directing the Manifesting Forces from the Beginning of Creation, according to AL or Barbie Girl, Of Course?

 

[Mark SeaSigh]

Hey Mark, you still haven't shown me those two major groups that scientists say are evolutionarily connected, that don't have a transitional. Since you keep saying there aren't any transitionals at all, this should be pretty easy for you.

But you keep stalling. Why is that?

"Stalling"? Like a Horse?

Anyway; I'm not the one who believes in the "Theory of Common Descent" of all the "Major Groups" of animals, in the First Place: Isn't that you Evolutionists?

I challenged you to: "Show me any Two "Major Groups" (Species) of modern animals that Evolutionists have proven both to have a Common Ancestry?".

Since; You seem to believe in that sort of thing... : P


=M=


I knew you were hiding down there, Girl.

 

[patrick jane]

That just seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of the odds imo.
The odds of any close variation of what actually did happen, but which in fact didn't, would all be just as fantastic but nevertheless something must happen given that something could and did.
Given that life began and evolves then the odds of any of current life being here now are probably also about as next to zip as makes no difference. But yet despite those crazy odds something nevertheless has to be around today, at this end of evolution, because we evidentially know it does.

We are only here now, by chance imo, because we can be here, not because we were an entity in the distant past to which rational odds of our appearance now could even be applied.
Otoh would the odds against any of us being here now be any different, as individuals, if it took a specific God to create us rather than it happening by evolution?



Perhaps some people find that their beliefs matter more than a possible harsher reality? If so believe away.
I wouldn't have a problem with any religion that was evidentially true, but since none are imo then the odds of one of them actually being true are probably just as great as those mentioned above. lain:

i've taken up to the minute "evidence", including theoretical physics, scientific facts and data, and God Is the ultimate conclusion. i don't pretend to "save" anyone or even lead someone to God. that's an individual thing, after all. anyway, i think the example i cited with encyclopedias, was pertaining ONLY to the human genome. not every other amazing part of God's creation. look up, out your window. it all happened this way just because it could ? people have all been crazy for thousands of years, and finally, now, we can see that God isn't necessary ? do you realize how tiny we are and how DEAD the universe(s) have been FACTUALLY observed. how absurd and self-aggrandizing it is, to actually ascribe to that perspective of reality. fun to think about for a minute, like a good movie. FAITH IS NOT fear of the unknown or a NEED for a Creator, it's not just a way to "feel good" and ignore the random harshness, cruelty and death of the obvservable universe. it is not painful or scary to think we're just lucky to be here, it was bound to happen. in fact, it's easier, kind of a cop out IMO. btw, Imo's is good pizza in st. louis, anyhoo, i don't even go so far as to hope this helps you, or anyone for that matter (totally unchristian, huh). people generally live WITHIN their own tiny layer of reality, our "own little world". it's hard not to. i'm pretty sure we're all confused, especially the ones that know they aren't. peace out brah ! - atrol: p.s. - if all possible things are bound to happen eventually, then why hasn't a form of life occured that travels through time and tells us everything ? or talk to us now ? it has to have happened, because we can imagine it.