Courtship vs. Dating

[taoist]

I had an illiterate landlord when I was finishing up my studies. (Okay, the building was actually owned by a couple lawyers for the mob, he was more rent enforcer than landlord.)

He asked me once to tutor his son who had a "bad attitude" about reading. I was a, literally, starving student. I could have really used the money. I thought about it for almost two heartbeats and then offered to teach him to read instead. I told him it would be the best thing for his kid's education. Besides, I didn't much fancy the consequences if his kid didn't learn, if you know what I mean.

He turned me down.

 

[taoist]

Christine;
Natural evidence? Have you ever observed something evolving? Not from one bird to another bird, but from a bird to a completely different animal?

taoist;
While I'm sure you feel strongly about this issue, you should avoid using standard arguments which require no more than a quick search through the talkorigins.org database of debunked creationist claims. This one is the Were you there? argument.

Yes, because "there" is here. Events in the past leave traces that last into the present, and we can and do look at that evidence today.

On the other hand, have you ever observed creation?


Christine;
Theory — A hypothesis that has been tested with a significant amount of data.

taoist;
Not bad to start with, but not an especially useful definition. You've left out two things which are essential for any theory to gain academic standing, prediction and thus falsifiability. A theory which cannot be falsified and makes no predictions has no place in science. (You'd have done better by just looking it up at dictionary.com.)


Christine;
I have no problem accepting microevolution. There is a significant amount of evidence to back it up. It is macroevolution that I cannot accept. Not only does it contradict the Bible, but there is no evidence in favor of it.

taoist;
Oh, really! The bible isn't allowed to be falsifiable! All the more reason to keep it away from science curricula. In point of fact, however, macroevolution does not contradict the bible; it contradicts an extremely narrow and bigoted literal interpretation of the bible.

This is the Microevolution is distinct from macroevolution claim.

Microevolution and macroevolution are different things, but they involve mostly the same processes ...

... and rely on mostly the same evidence, I might add.

Oh, and btw, pi still isn't equal to three, independent of what the bible says on the matter.


Christine;
How do you know life appeared on earth over two billion years ago?

taoist;
Ever heard of Stromatolites?


Christine;
The world isn't even a million years old.

taoist;
Good grief, there are hominid fossils older than that. Which of the following hominid species would you say existed before the world was formed?

• Sahelanthropus tchadensis: 6 - 7 mya
• Orrorin tugenensis : 6 mya
• Ardipithecus ramidus : 5.8 mya
• Australopithecus anamensis : 4.2 - 3.9 mya
• Australopithecus afarensis: 3.9 - 3.0 mya
• Kenyanthropus platyops: 3.5 mya
• Australopithecus africanus: 3 - 2 mya
• Australopithecus aethiopicus: 2.6 - 2.3 mya
• Australopithecus robustus: 2 - 1.5 mya
• Australopithecus boisei (was Zinjanthropus boisei ): 2.1 - 1.1 mya
• Homo habilis: 2.4 - 1.5 mya
• Homo georgicus: 1.8 mya
• Homo erectus: 1.8 - .3 mya
• Homo antecessor: c. .78 mya
• Homo sapiens (archaic) (also Homo heidelbergensis ): .5 mya
• Homo sapiens neanderthalensis (also Homo neanderthalensis ): .23 - .03 mya
• Homo sapiens sapiens (modern): .12 mya - today

And that's just hominids. A claim that the earth is less than a million years old has to refute the evidence from literally millions of fossils. And when that's done, they can turn to geology, astrophysics ... but there's no time to lose. The evidence isn't static; it's being added to continuously, and at faster and faster rates.

Less than 5 percent of US engineers and scientists are creationists. When we narrow down to those in biology and the life sciences, it's even worse, less than 0.15 percent here in the US, and less than 0.10 percent in the developed world. (We're a little backward.) Creationism itself is heavily linked to lack of education. It disturbs me when others wish to remain ignorant. It offends me when they advocate that I or my fellow citizens should share their ignorance, or worse, consider it a moral good.


Christine;
I believe all animals descended from animals of the same species, that the animal is. Birds came from birds.

taoist;
I have no interest in disturbing your beliefs. In turn, I'd ask you not to inflict them on science education.


Christine;
Yes, I believe that an animal's surroundings can affect it. I do not believe that natural selection and evolution are the same thing.

taoist;
Very good! They're not. Natural selection is a mechanism of evolution, and only one of many. But to re-iterate my earlier challenge. Creationism does not suffice to predict any of the four processes I enumerated. The most it can possibly hope for is to make accommodations for them.

Okay, the lecture's over. Time to hit the books. Homework: Review creationism from the viewpoint of the National Academy of Sciences.

• Science and Creationism

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by taoist
taoist;

Thank ya, darlin', but I'm still not giving you a ride on the motorcycle without ya put on that helmet. But I'll take your implied meaning and treat you as a young adult, if you wish. This will be less gentle than I'd treat your younger sister. I'm going to raise the standards for this discussion.

I have no problem at all with you raising the standards of our discussion, but I really did mean that you don't seem old to me. My dad is ten years older than you are.

taoist;

Mathematics is called the queen of the sciences. (University, not college; there's a substantial difference, especially when it comes to research.) I'm a pure math dude. Fun things like stabilizing transformations on embeddable projective geometries in infinite classes of algebraic codes over finite fields. I named them "Projective Design Codes." Think about treating functions like you'd treat numbers but with a few more operations than just addition and multiplication. After that, it starts to get interesting.

My dad taught math.

taoist;

ata, please. The word "majority" has a meaning. You've discovered their fullest potential via what methodology? You're employing a method of debate known as "argument by unsupported assertion." I don't believe the research has been done to support your position. I do believe it should be an active topic of research, especially as home schooling has become more popular.

Here is the data By looking at this study showing how homeschoolers excel, I think it's safe to assume that for the majority of them it is because of their parent's help.

taoist;

hat's wonderful. Most public school systems do have independent study courses available, though it takes a bit more paperwork. (I should know having seen more than my share of public school systems and independent study.)

It's great if you had such an opportunity. However with the classes I am referring to (namely Greek and Hebrew) I don't think the public school would offer them. I probably wouldn't even have time to work on three languages at once.

taoist;

Yes, both of those things, but mostly getting the kids out where they could be spotted by the local "nosy parkers" if you know that expression. I'm thinking especially of what could have been done to give Ms. Yates' kids a better chance. No guarantees, just a better roll of the dice. The social workers eventually got in, but by then it was too late.
Think in terms of those kids and tell me what you think could have been done better or differently. Personally, I think even the most minimal regulatory standard for home schools would have prevented the tragedy. The place wasn't clean enough to live in, let alone to study in. That particular case is profoundly disturbing to me. I could very easily put myself in their shoes. I know from personal experience how they must have felt.

From what I've heard about the Andrea Yates case, I think the father should have been more involved. Now, I've never heard it said before that the Yate's house wasn't clean enough to live in.

taoist;

This is wishful thinking at best, a rose-colored view of the world. Illiterate parents are unlikely to be skilled in any area of learning. The odds of both parents being illiterate given that one is illiterate are naturally higher. Remove your doubts along with your rose-colored glasses and think about the cases as they truly exist.

While I do realize that most illiterate parents would not homeschool, this does not mean they couldn't. In the state of Ohio, where I live, the homeschool law is set up so if you don't have a diploma or even a GED and you want to homeschool your children, you can do so under the eye of someone with a bachelor's degree.

taoist;

Two basic reasons come to mind.

1. The student is subject to wrong instruction
2. The student's instruction is interrupted by time spent instructing the instructor

It's usually a bad idea for the blind to lead the blind.

Granted, it would not be the ideal situation. However, I have statistics to prove that homeschooled students still excel even if their parents did not complete high school.

taoist;

You've obviously never visited the inner city. Take my word for it, it's possible for an entire neighborhood to be dysfunctional.

You're right, I never have been to the inner city. Instead, I live in a very rural setting.

The poorly educated tend to cluster in families. If one family member is a college graduate, then the chances are very great that other family members are as well. Conversely, if neither parent has been to college, the chances are very great that the children will not attempt college at all.
"Surely," your viewpoint is biased by your own environment. There are a lot of bad homes out there. Less than half are two-parent families. Far too often, the public school is the closest thing these students will see to a stable environment. Even inner-city gangs consider school grounds neutral territory.

That may be true, but aren't there often gang and other related problems at school?

taoist;

Does he post here as well?

No, my father does not post here, nor is he registered on TOL. He has looked around on here some, though.

 

[Zimfan]

Originally posted by taoist
taoist;
Sit down right here, grasshoppa, and learn at the feet of the master.
:ahso:

Well, now that someone more qualified than I has taken my side in the debate I can retreat into a corner and take notes.
By the way, I'm curious about something. Is it true that in some higher forms of mathematics numbers are not constant but fluid?

Now, time to :shut: .

 

[Elaine]

This thread is getting confusing! I hope :nori: doesn't mind our "hijacking" it.

 

[Zimfan]

Originally posted by Elaine
This thread is getting confusing! I hope :nori: doesn't mind our "hijacking" it.

I take any responsibility for getting off the topic of the thread. I figure she should be easy on me since I'm a fellow redneck and hijacking is what we do. :neck:

 

[taoist]

Christine

Here is the data. By looking at this study showing how homeschoolers excel, I think it's safe to assume that for the majority of them it is because of their parent's help. I have statistics to prove that homeschooled students still excel even if their parents did not complete high school.

I would agree that parental participation and interest in their students' schooling is a good predictor of academic success. This predictor is not restricted to home schooling, however.

Well, I have to admit the charts looked impressive at first glance. I decided to spend some time digging deeper. You're not going to like what I found. I'm sorry.

I'm not sure how to say this gently without minimizing the truth. Let's try it this way. This website deliberately defrauded you. Their mischaracterizations were not accidental. You should be angry with them. I am not disappointed by your misapprehension of the validity of the studies only because you are not a seasoned researcher.

The "data" you listed come from two studies, one by Ray, president of the National Home Education Research Institute and the other by Rudner of the ERIC Clearinghouse of Assessment and Evaluation. Both were commissioned by HSLDA.

Ray's study is published in book form. The data gathering and sample characteristics are not available elsewhere, though I've checked both the HSLDA links and Ray's own NHERI.org website. There is no evidence of peer review and several implicit references to criticism of its independence in the commentary on Rudner's study.

Rudner's study is of better quality, but can not in any sense be considered "independent" due to its funding. Characterizing the study in this way by HSLDA would be considered academic fraud in a university setting though this sort of "independent" study is common in marketing. Regardless, the study itself is grossly misrepresented on the HSLDA website. To their credit, they do provide a page holding the actual study for comparison.

A quick glance shows generalizing the data analysis beyond the group which actually participated to be groundless. It's applicability to even the target participants is questionable.

Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Characteristics
of Home School Students in 1998

Because this was not a controlled experiment, the study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools and the results must be interpreted with caution.

Bob Jones University selected the participants, qualified the test administrators (often the parents themselves), collected and scored the tests after removing nearly half the original dataset and provided this heavily processed data to Rudner for analysis. I can only assume that the source of funding prevented Rudner from using a stronger characterization than "not a controlled experiment."

Using a researcher's eye, I found far too many issues with this study to consider it useful as anything other than propaganda. Two particular issues caught my attention in particular. Self-selection of the participants and poor security of the dataset.

Self-selection

A study is compromised by "self-selection" when the data sampled are not selected randomly and when the sample itself shows evidence of variable cooperation dependent on likely outcome. Rudner's data suffers from both of these issues.

All participants in Rudner's study were drawn from those contracting test materials from BJU. Considering this data origin, it is not surprising that minorities were severely underrepresented in the study. Moreover, it is also not surprising that the participants are overrepresented by fundamentalist evangelical christians.

From Table 2.7, Home School Students Classified by Mother's Religion

• Independent Fundamental, 25.1%
• Baptist, 24.4
• Independent Charismatic, 8.2
• Roman Catholic, 5.4
• Assembly of God, 4.1
• ...

Poor security

Rudner was clearly concerned with missing data.

After we formed the dataset with 20,760 students, we asked for the remainder of the 39,607 achievement test scores. We were informed that it would not be possible to disaggregate the remaining home school students from students in private schools also contracting testing services.

The fact that Rudner felt this caveat suitable for inclusion in his analysis is quite telling.

This answer from BJU is disingenuous at best. My initial impression is that it is probably fraudulent. To accept BJU's explanation, it would be necessary to assume that nearly half of its contractees were parents with students enrolled in private schools who did not receive the tests through their school administrators. This is not credible.

The alternative explanation is thus compelling. BJU eliminated lower test scores from the dataset provided to Rudner. This explanation is consistent with both BJU's history and the dataset analysis. Removing the lowest half of the dataset would naturally yield the given analysis.

BJU has a history of supporting their positions through means which are generally considered unethical and often considered immoral. I believe this is yet another example.

 

[taoist]

Zimfan;
By the way, I'm curious about something. Is it true that in some higher forms of mathematics numbers are not constant but fluid?

taoist;
Fluid numbers? That's an interesting choice of adjective. What I think of as "numbers" probably wouldn't fit in with your usual ideas, I'm pretty sure. I'm guessing you're trying to ask if a single number symbol can hold a bunch of values at the same time. Well, yeah.

Simple example, modular arithmetic: Take the integers mod 7. Anytime I write 3, I mean the infinite set of numbers { ..., -11, -4, 3, 10, ... }. Doesn't keep me from adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing exactly the way you'd do with real numbers. (Pop quiz: what's 3/2? Hint: 1/2 = 4)

Another simple example, square matrices: You can add, subtract, multiply and divide pretty much the same as you do with real numbers (except multiplication stops being commutative and zero gets a bit fuzzy). You can even set up matrix polynomials and solve them. Every matrix has something called a characteristic polynomial attached to it.

More examples: Numbers that are actually permutations, numbers that are actually functions, numbers that are actually operations on functions of permutations, real numbers, hyperreal numbers, surreal numbers, ... Warning, these tricks are strictly for professionals. Be careful now, tykes, don't try this at home(school).

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by taoist
This answer from BJU is disingenuous at best. My initial impression is that it is probably fraudulent. To accept BJU's explanation, it would be necessary to assume that nearly half of its contractees were parents with students enrolled in private schools who did not receive the tests through their school administrators. This is not credible.

The alternative explanation is thus compelling. BJU eliminated lower test scores from the dataset provided to Rudner. This explanation is consistent with both BJU's history and the dataset analysis. Removing the lowest half of the dataset would naturally yield the given analysis.

BJU has a history of supporting their positions through means which are generally considered unethical and often considered immoral. I believe this is yet another example.

Your willingness to disparage BJU based upon guesswork is noted, and is ostensibly derived from some deep-seated personal bias. I would have expected a little more from a mathematics professor.

 

[taoist]

LightSon;
Your willingness to disparage BJU based upon guesswork is noted, and is ostensibly derived from some deep-seated personal bias. I would have expected a little more from a mathematics professor.

taoist;
Your willingness to defend the most notoriously racist institution in the country is noted, and is ostensibly derived from some deep-seated personal bias. I would have expected a little more from a christian.

 

[taoist]

And now that we've exchanged our tit-for-tat personal attacks, would you care to address the extremely suspect withholding of data from a "commissioned" yet somehow "independent" analyst? Or you can just let it drop. After all, we both know it's indefensible.

But, while we're speaking of the indefensible, by all means, let's eliminate the guesswork ...

08/31/98 Letter from Bob Jones University

Bob Jones University does, however, have a rule prohibiting interracial dating among its students. God has separated people for His own purpose. He has erected barriers between the nations, not only land and sea barriers, but also ethnic, cultural, and language barriers. God has made people different one from another and intends those differences to remain. Bob Jones University is opposed to intermarriage of the races because it breaks down the barriers God has established. It mixes that which God separated and intends to keep separate.

Bob Jones University: Racism by Any Other Name

Oh, and lest anyone think this policy was just dropped and forgotten, I'm afraid that's not quite accurate. You see, in order for students of two different races to date, they must first obtain the permission of their parents. The parents must send a letter to the dean of men or women telling the school that the relationship has their blessing before the school will allow it.

BOB JONES UNIVERSITY

Percent of undergraduate enrollment by race/ethnicity

• White non-Hispanic, 94.4%
• Asian or Pacific Islander, 2.7%
• Hispanic, 1.8%
• Black non-Hispanic, 0.8%
• American Indian or Alaskan Native, 0.2%
• Race-ethnicity unknown, 0.1

I'd love to see how some of our TOL "mudpeople" would react to your defense of BJU.

 

[taoist]

Pop quiz update:

What's 3/2 modulo 7?
Hint: 1/2 = 4

Correct answers via PM:

• Turbo

 

[LightSon]

Taoist wants to play the race card. At least be honest about it.

As taoist’s links demonstrate, Bob Jones University rescinded their interracial dating policies over 3 years ago.

Effective March 3, 2000, Bob Jones III has rescinded the ban on interracial dating. This letter no longer reflects current policy and is provided for information purposes only.

So why are you dredging this up? Your attacks against the school are spurious and based upon a policy that no longer exists. :kookoo:

If you want to know what Bob Jones University stands for, don't listen to the ill-informed and prejudiced taoist, examine the university first hand..

taoist shows his racism by saying, "I'd love to see how some of our TOL "mudpeople" would react to your defense of BJU."

What kind of a ill-mannered and racial slur is that taoist? Shame on you!

Yes I am a Christian, and am honored to stand with my school. Yes that is my bias, and having spent years on BJU campus, I can speak from first hand knowledge. Can you? I know they are not racist. You’ve swallowed some second-hand anti-Christian lies, and are now regurgitating them. You need to wise up.

 

[taoist]

LightSon

Taoist wants to play the race card. At least be honest about it.

A BJU alumnus right here on the board, whaddaya know. Let's see how his education warps his view of life. My last girlfriend, who just happened to be a Latina, not that that meant anything special to me, will tell you I'm not a racist. After she smacks you upside the head, that is. She's not real fond of crackers.

I suppose I could look up one of my old black girlfriends and let them take turns.

This isn't about race cards — a phrase typically used to push responsibility for racist attitudes away from a racist, by the way. I'm stating a simple fact. Bob Jones U. is racist. Their policies have been and continue to be written along racial lines.

As taoist’s links demonstrate, Bob Jones University rescinded their interracial dating policies over 3 years ago.

And you ignored the other two links for what reason? Link two: the policy was made clandestine. Link three: only token minorities need apply, thank you.

So why are you dredging this up? Your attacks against the school are spurious and based upon a policy that no longer exists. :kookoo:

Bullpies. See above.

If you want to know what Bob Jones University stands for, don't listen to the ill-informed and prejudiced taoist, examine the university first hand..

Taoist has no reasons to attack or defend BJU except those which are apparent by looking at its history and present condition of racial separatism. That's called an objective observer. LightSon is a BJU alumnus. I'll leave it to the reader to figure who's prejudiced here, in both senses of the word.

taoist shows his racism by saying, "I'd love to see how some of our TOL "mudpeople" would react to your defense of BJU."

"No, I'm not prejudiced, taoist is! I know I attended a 94.4% white school with 0.8% blacks but that's because I loved the christian message, not so I wouldn't have to eat with blacks or sleep with blacks or watch any of them dating white women.

"Look, taoist used a word that racists use. Never mind it was in quotes. Never mind he was pointing out how offensive it is. Don't look at what he said, look at what I wish he'd said. And most of all, don't look at me."

What kind of an ill-mannered and racial slur is that taoist? Shame on you!

Hey, I'm not the one from BJU. I don't have to feel ashamed. Tell me the truth, would you let one of "them" date your sister?

Yes I am a Christian, and am honored to stand with my school. Yes that is my bias, and having spent years on BJU campus, I can speak from first hand knowledge. Can you? I know they are not racist. You’ve swallowed some second-hand anti-Christian lies, and are now regurgitating them. You need to wise up.

"We were never impolite to our colored help."

Of course I never attended BJU. They wouldn't approve my choice of girlfriends even if I had parents to grant permission. But that's okay 'cause their God told them miscegenation was a sin. Not having parents to sign that permission slip is just their God's way of telling me I shouldn't have been thinking along those lines to begin with.

Oh no, LightSon, I don't need any more wising up, thanks.

And one last thing, unlike BJU, I'm not anti-christian.

 

[Crow]

It's interesting that Bob Jones does get their nose out of joint about interracial dating. Moses had a black wife, Zipporah. You'd think what was good enough for Moses would be good enough for BJU.

And whatever would they think of me? I'm mixed race. You don't have to worry about my family polluting our gene pool--been there, done that, and did it when it wasn't even fashionable.

Is there a color chart you have to stand in front of and they see who you can date or not? I've got mixed coloring and features. What do they do with mutts?

Personally, I don't care if BJ University wants me, approves of me, likes me or thinks I'm an aberration from the Divine scheme because of my bloodlines. It's a free country. God gave them free will, just as he gave the rest of us. They can do whatever the heck they want. I'm a Christian, not a Bobjonesian. If they want to be ridiculous, let them knock themselves out.

 

[Zimfan]

So, since it seems everyone else has quit, does that mean that Taoist has won?

 

[Yorzhik]

Originally posted by Zimfan
So, since it seems everyone else has quit, does that mean that Taoist has won?

If I just had some time... I do know that ShadowMaid doesn't have any lately.

 

[LightSon]

I have strong feelings about Bob Jones University and have possibly over reacted to what I felt where unfair and prejudiced criticisms.

This is not to say that BJ is perfect and hasn't made its share of mistakes, even perhaps in the area of racial relations. I also want to honor Crow; she is certainly entitled to her feelings. I just hope she and others will seek to have an open mind and to educate themselves of the facts prior to resting in any conclusions.

Crow made an important point. Jesus Christ and His honor are paramount. Neither BJU or I are anything, except it be in Christ. If there is shame BJU ought to bear, let it be. I choose not to contend over this issue at this time. My choice should not be confused with a patent concession to taoist. If I have been unfair to taoist in my assertions, I pray to be led to a more conciliatory posture. I have no ill will towards him and in fact respect his integrity and moral courage.

 

[Elaine]

Originally posted by Zimfan
So, since it seems everyone else has quit, does that mean that Taoist has won?

No, it does not. I would keep on discussing it with him, thought it seems likely that neither of us would have gotten anywhere, but first my sister took over, and then it seemed to sort of peter out. :yawn:

 

[shilohproject]

Originally posted by LightSon
If you want to know what Bob Jones University stands for, don't listen to the ill-informed and prejudiced taoist, examine the university first hand..

Yeah, I saw a photo of a black guy on the "About BJU" page. So there!