Could God forgive without crucifixion?

[dodge]

If you are using the court metaphor, Christ's death was not a legal payment for our sins.
It was the bar exam that Jesus passed in order to become our public defender.

"Jhn 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


You might want to do a study on how the Romans ended a sentence that had been served. They placed a parchment on the door when the sentence was served that read "it is finished" . Jesus had become the PAYMENT of sin for all that would place their faith in Him, and by doing so HE became the advocate for all that trusts and follows Him.

 

[Samie]

"Jhn 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


You might want to do a study on how the Romans ended a sentence that had been served. They placed a parchment on the door when the sentence was served that read "it is finished" . Jesus had become the PAYMENT of sin for all that would place their faith in Him, and by doing so HE became the advocate for all that trusts and follows Him.

I think the parchment was placed on the door when Jesus cried "It is finished". And that covers every person in Adam's race.

He did not cry "It will be finished when a person places their faith in Me."

KJV 1 Timothy 2:5-6 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

IF a person cannot be forgiven unless he first places his faith in Christ, then no one was forgiven on the cross. Unbiblical, it seems:

NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions

Clearly, the text declares the making alive TOGETHER with Christ was AFTER all transgressions were forgiven. IOW, when Christ rose from the grave, all sins were already forgiven.

 

[dodge]

I think the parchment was placed on the door when Jesus cried "It is finished". And that covers every person in Adam's race.

He did not cry "It will be finished when a person places their faith in Me."

KJV 1 Timothy 2:5-6 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

IF a person cannot be forgiven unless he first places his faith in Christ, then no one was forgiven on the cross. Unbiblical, it seems:

NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions

Clearly, the text declares the making alive TOGETHER with Christ was AFTER all transgressions were forgiven. IOW, when Christ rose from the grave, all sins were already forgiven.

The thief on the cross said to Jesus Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom meaning the thief PLACED HIS FAITH IN JESUS. Jesus then said today you will be with me in paradise.

 

[Clete]

So based on your reasoning the book of life got slain ?

Jesus was the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world keeps the context of the verse.

Did Almighty God know that Jesus would be crucified BEFORE the heavens and earth was created ? Of course He did.

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Simply put the book of life contains the names of those who are born again and in Christ Jesus who was slain from the foundation of the world.

You're throwing a lot of pearls into the slop here, Dodge.

Just sayin'

 

[kmoney]

This is something I would like to dig into more myself. However, I do think that it is incorrect to view forgiveness through Christ as justice. Justice would be getting what you deserve, justice would be death. Forgiveness is a mercy, and mercy transcends justice.

James 2:12-13 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy [m]triumphs over judgment.​

I would also say that it is incorrect to assert that because of Christ that God now has the ability to forgive sin. He has always been willing to forgive one who repents earnestly. Take a look at David, for instance, who clearly deserved death for his transgressions. Rather, scripture says that Christ was given the authority to forgive sins from God - even before his sacrifice.

Matthew 9:5-8 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He *said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” 7 And he got up and [c]went home. 8 But when the crowds saw this, they were [d]awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.​

It is also not the case that either sin or death for it are completely done away with, at least at this point. Rather, we must die and be born again. I think this to be a more accurate understanding of what Christ's death accomplished: that just as he died, we must die - and as he rose, so too will we rise. It is the New Covenant which was established with Christ's blood - so that everyone be afforded the opportunity, the right, to become children of God.

Romans 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of [c]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh​

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive.​

Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.​

Hebrews 9:16-17 For where a [q]covenant is, there must of necessity [r]be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when [t]men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.​

Good post. I think I agree with all of this.

I wouldn't say that God couldn't forgive without the crucifixion. Jesus' death may have been necessary, but not to establish or make possible God's forgiveness. It established his priesthood and the new covenant. Or, to point back to the genuineoriginal post I quoted, Christ is now our public defender in a more legal framework.

 

[dodge]

You're throwing a lot of pearls into the slop here, Dodge.

Just sayin'

Sadly, many folks have not been served well by their teachers.

When God tells me these folks are beyond help and to no longer cast His pearls I will stop I assure you.

 

[Samie]

The thief on the cross said to Jesus Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom meaning the thief PLACED HIS FAITH IN JESUS. Jesus then said today you will be with me in paradise.

Is it not paradise to be In Christ?

And that same day, the thief, as well as you and me and everybody else in Adam's race, was fashioned into His Body on the cross BEFORE Christ cried out "It is finished".

What I'm saying is, to say that only those who place their faith in Christ are ones who can be In Christ is totally against Christ's own words, that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. But although every one was fashioned into His Body, only overcomers of evil with good will finally make it to the heavenly portals and eternal life.

 

[dodge]

Samie;4684377]Is it not paradise to be In Christ?

YES !

And that same day, the thief, as well as you and me and everybody else in Adam's race, was fashioned into His Body on the cross BEFORE Christ cried out "It is finished".

NO wrong ! The thief placed his faith in Jesus as we all individually must do according to scripture.

What I'm saying is, to say that only those who place their faith in Christ are ones who can be In Christ is totally against Christ's own words, that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. But although every one was fashioned into His Body, only overcomers of evil with good will finally make it to the heavenly portals and eternal life.

Scripture teaches that we must ALL individually place our faith in Jesus as HE and the Apostles taught.

The thief, as you and I, placed his faith in Jesus !

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[Tambora]

Exodus 32:33 KJV
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


How many have sinned?

 

[Samie]

Exodus 32:33 KJV
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


How many have sinned?

Since all have sinned, will all be blotted out? Christ answers: Ovecomers will NOT be blotted out. Rev 3:5

Will you disagree with Christ?

 

[Tambora]

Exodus 32:33 KJV
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


How many have sinned?

Since all have sinned, will all be blotted out? Christ answers: Ovecomers will NOT be blotted out. Rev 3:5

Will you disagree with Christ?

I believe God is the author of both verses, and both are true.

Those in Christ have no sin that can count against them.

 

[Samie]

YES !



NO wrong ! The thief placed his faith in Jesus as we all individually must do according to scripture.



Scripture teaches that we must ALL individually place our faith in Jesus as HE and the Apostles taught.

The thief, as you and I, placed his faith in Jesus !

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

You have gone astray from the original issue: When was the document placed on the door?

You said it was placed on the door when one places his faith in Christ. That's salvation by works. Unbiblical

It was placed on the door when Christ cried "It is finished". You simply ignored what I posted here.

 

[Samie]

I believe God is the author of both verses, and both are true.

Those in Christ have no sin that can count against them.

Correct. And all people are born In Christ.

People are blotted out for REFUSAL to overcome evil with good. Only overcomers will be with Christ on His throne.

Revelation 3:21 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[Tambora]

Is the book of life and the Lamb's book of life the same book?

Could not the book of life be about the physically living?
And to be stricken from that book means physical death.

For consideration:

Exodus 32:31-33 KJV
(31) And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
(32) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
​

Is Moses saying if God won't forgive them, then just just let me die now?

If one is written in the book means ETERNAL life (rather than physical), then it would have been impossible for anyone to be eliminated (you can't make ETERNAL life be NON-ETERNAL life).
ETERNAL is ETERNAL.

 

[dodge]

You have gone astray from the original issue: When was the document placed on the door?

You said it was placed on the door when one places his faith in Christ. That's salvation by works. Unbiblical

It was placed on the door when Christ cried "It is finished". You simply ignored what I posted here.

The document was placed on the door when the sentence had been COMPLETED.. Jesus' sacrifice was payment in full to satisfy the Holiness and justice of God for OUR sins.

No one can EARN grace as it is a gift of God. God makes the rules NOT man nor a denomination.

I did not ignore your point I tried to explain to you that the thief on the cross as we all must do placed his faith in Jesus when he said Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom ( as we all must do ) .

I then quoted a verse that supports that we must come to God in faith.

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[Samie]

The document was placed on the door when the sentence had been COMPLETED.. Jesus' sacrifice was payment in full to satisfy the Holiness and justice of God for OUR sins.

No one can EARN grace as it is a gift of God. God makes the rules NOT man nor a denomination.

I did not ignore your point I tried to explain to you that the thief on the cross as we all must do placed his faith in Jesus when he said Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom ( as we all must do ) .

I then quoted a verse that supports that we must come to God in faith.

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I did not take issue with coming to God in faith. I took issue when you said:"Jesus had become the PAYMENT of sin for all that would place their faith in Him, and by doing so HE became the advocate for all that trusts and follows Him."

It should be for all in Adam's race, no one exempted. I even provided the verse in my response.

 

[Samie]

Is the book of life and the Lamb's book of life the same book?

Could not the book of life be about the physically living?
And to be stricken from that book means physical death.

For consideration:

Exodus 32:31-33 KJV
(31) And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
(32) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
​

Is Moses saying if God won't forgive them, then just just let me die now?

If one is written in the book means ETERNAL life (rather than physical), then it would have been impossible for anyone to be eliminated (you can't make ETERNAL life be NON-ETERNAL life).
ETERNAL is ETERNAL.

There is only ONE book referred to in the whole Bible where names are written: the book of life = the Lamb's book of life.

It's His book, and He can blot out whom He judges to be not fit for heaven.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Scriptures EXPLICITLY tells us of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world:

I showed you how you misinterpreted the verse.
But, it wasn't you, I am sure you were given the misinterpretation from someone else and never thought to question it.

So based on your reasoning the book of life got slain ?

Now you are being silly.

I assumed that you already knew of the verses that mention the slain lamb.

Revelation 5:6 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.​

Revelation 5:12 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.​

Jesus was the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world keeps the context of the verse.

Well, if Jesus was slain from before the foundation of the world, then it would have been pointless for Him to come down to earth and get slain all over again.
.
No, Jesus was found worthy to open the book because He was obedient unto death, even death on the cross, not because He was slain before the foundation of the world.

 

[Predi]

You said Paul was not worried about other's salvation. Why did he want to see the Romans so bad?

As he himself said, to make them stronger.

 

[Predi]

Predi,

Why bother asking questions if you aren't going to think through the answers given to you?

Since you are effectively ignoring my answer, answer your own question...

I believe the answers you gave were based on wrong interpretation of certain biblical terms or errors in translation.