climate change

[The Barbarian]

Look at your chart.

Yes. Notice the trend line, showing a dramatic drop in coverage over the past few decades.

The ice is back to the 2006 level.

Actually 2008. People who confuse annual fluctuations with the overall trend are easy victims for anyone with a story to tell. You've been suckered again.

It has grown over a million square kilometers the last two years.

And shrunk by about 4 million in the last 35 years. Surprised? That's what happens when you confuse weather with climate.

Speaking of growing ice, the Antarctic ice is bigger than it has EVER been.

Guess where it came from. The collapse of continental ice shelves in the last few decades, along with increasing shrinkage of glaciers accelerated by the loss of the ice shelves, has dumped a huge amount of ice into the ocean, where it is now floating north and melting. Also the stronger winds as a result of greater temps has produced more polynyas, which favor ice formation. Likewise the increased precipitation has produced less salty water at the surface, slowing the rise of warmer water from lower levels. (the sea around Antarctica has cold water overlaying warmer water)

The most common misconception regarding Antarctic sea ice is that sea ice is increasing because it's cooling around Antarctica. The reality is the Southern Ocean surrounding Antarctica has shown strong warming over the same period that sea ice has been increasing. Globally from 1955 to 1995, oceans have been warming at 0.1°C per decade. In contrast, the Southern Ocean (specifically the region where Antarctic sea ice forms) has been warming at 0.17°C per decade. Not only is the Southern Ocean warming, it's warming faster than the global trend. This warming trend is apparent in satellite measurements of temperature trends over Antarctica:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/increasing-Antarctic-Southern-sea-ice-intermediate.htm

As you see, warming produces a lot of things that you might not expect. Deniers think it's a simple system. And it's not.

 

[The Barbarian]

(Barbarian observes that polar bears are now coming ashore to forage garbage)

(denial)

(Barbarian shows that it's a fact)

Are you really this desperate?

Someone is.

Look at when the article was written. It was written in the spring. In the spring the ice melts, and the polar bears come back to the land to look for food because they can't hunt seals once the ice melts.

Used to be, there was sufficient thick ice to allow them to hunt year round. Raiding trash is a recent phenomenon.

Experts say the slow formation of winter ice on Hudson Bay this year has pushed some of Canada's polar bears to the brink of starvation and forced them to scrounge for food near old garbage dumps.

The bears weren't able to get onto the ice to hunt seals until late November this year, which observers say is becoming the norm.

David Barber, one of the world's top Arctic researchers, said Hudson Bay polar bears have lost six weeks of hunting time on the ice due to climate change.

The bay often doesn't freeze up until early December now and thaws earlier in the spring, he said, leaving polar bears with less time to bulk up on fatty seal meat.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...ome-hudson-bay-polar-bears-starving-1.1204260

I understand why this upsets you. But reality isn't required to meet your needs.

 

[tetelestai]

As you see, warming produces a lot of things that you might not expect.

Back in 2008 I was told that the warming produces warmer temperatures and melting ice.

Al Gore said there was a good chance there would be no polar ice at all today. RFK Jr. (an Environmental Attorney) said there would never be snow in Washington D.C again.

It's 2014 and we have record low temperatures, record snow falls, and the ice has grown by millions of square kilometers at both poles. I'm now told that the warming produces things I might not expect.

In reality, the "global warming hoax" has produced things that Al Gore, RFK Jr., and you did not expect.

 

[tetelestai]

Used to be, there was sufficient thick ice to allow them to hunt year round. Raiding trash is a recent phenomenon.

First off your article is almost 3 years old.

Secondly, did you even read your own article?

You said:

Used to be, there was sufficient thick ice to allow them to hunt year round.

Your article said:

"Hudson Bay polar bears have lost six weeks of hunting time on the ice due to climate change."

The article goes on to say that the Bay didn't freeze until early December.

So, nowhere in the article does it even suggest the Bay ever was frozen all year long.

Again, you just make stuff up.

Raiding trash is a recent phenomenon.

No, it's what the Polar Bears do when there is no ice in the spring and summer.

Experts say the slow formation of winter ice on Hudson Bay this year has pushed some of Canada's polar bears to the brink of starvation and forced them to scrounge for food near old garbage dumps.

That was three years ago, when the ice didn't form until early December. The ice usually forms in late October to late November.

The last two years the ice has formed in mid-November, which is normal.

The bears weren't able to get onto the ice to hunt seals until late November this year, which observers say is becoming the norm.

Again, your article is almost three years old. The last two winters the polar bears made it out in mid-November which is the norm. It most likely will be October this year because of how COLD it is right now, and how COLD it has been all summer.

I understand why this upsets you. But reality isn't required to meet your needs.

What upsets me is how dishonest you are being.

 

[resurrected]

What upsets me is how dishonest you are being.

shouldn't be a surprise, tet - you've been here long enough to know his style

 

[The Barbarian]

Back in 2008 I was told that the warming produces warmer temperatures and melting ice.

It does. As you see, most Alpine (mountain) glaciers are disappearing, but not all of them. The Greenland and Antarctic icecaps are melting on the edges. Antarctic ice shelves the size of Rhode Island have collapsed with the fragments drifting into the sea, because of melting. The ice cover in the Arctic ocean has receded by millions of kilometers in the last 30 years.

Al Gore said..

I don't care what Al Gore said. You political fixations have nothing to do with the science. Save it for someone who cares what Algore says.

It's 2014 and we have record low temperatures

We have record highs and lows every year. But as you learned, we had far more record highs than record lows last year. Did you not see the global map that was almost entirely red (higher temps) for 2013? Would you like us to show you again?

record snow falls

Predicted by Hanson in the 1980s. Higher temps mean more evaporation from the ocean, with more winter precipitation. No one who knows anything at all about climate was surprised by that.

It used to just get cold in North Texas in the winter. It's actually warmer now, but we get more snow. If this still surprises you, go research what causes snow.

and the ice has grown by millions of square kilometers at both poles.

Actually, as you learned, it has declined by millions of square kilometers since Hanson first predicted it. Your guys suckered you by pretending the huge melt-off in 2012 was the norm. So they set that as the baseline, and even though 2013 was millions of square feet less than just a few years ago, they convinced you that was an increase.

I'm now told that the warming produces things I might not expect.

Deniers want it to be simple and easy to understand even for those who don't bother to learn about it. But reality is what it is, even if you don't like it.

In reality, the "global warming hoax"

...is just a story deniers tell each other to keep the data at bay.

If you had bothered to learn about it, you'd wouldn't have been so easy to fool.

 

[gcthomas]

Back in 2008 I was told that the warming produces warmer temperatures and melting ice.

Warmer temperatures on average over the globe. Melting ice in the Arctic. Both being recorded.

Al Gore said there was a good chance there would be no polar ice at all today.

Here is what he said:

Last September 21, as the Northern Hemisphere tilted away from the sun, scientists reported with unprecedented distress that the North Polar ice cap is "falling off a cliff." One study estimated that it could be completely gone during summer in less than 22 years. Another new study, to be presented by U.S. Navy researchers later this week, warns it could happen in as little as 7 years.​

So he quoted studies without significant commentary. The 22 year time-scale is still on course.

RFK Jr. (an Environmental Attorney) said there would never be snow in Washington D.C again.

No. That's just plain wrong - I read the article and he said no such thing.
http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/articles/2008_sep_Los_angeles_times.html

It's 2014 and we have record low temperatures, record snow falls, and the ice has grown by millions of square kilometers at both poles. I'm now told that the warming produces things I might not expect.

In reality, the "global warming hoax" has produced things that Al Gore, RFK Jr., and you did not expect.

So the Arctic ice has recovered a little of what it lost over the last decade, and is on a sharp downward trend, still millions of square km below what is should be. Didn't you see the graph I shared earlier? How can you interpret that as a huge recovery?

 

[THall]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-14/record-coverage-of-antarctic-sea-ice/5742668


"Satellite imagery reveals an area of about 20 million square kilometres covered by sea ice around the Antarctic continent.

Jan Lieser from the Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Cooperative Research Centre (CRC) said the discovery was made two days ago.

"This is an area covered by sea ice which we've never seen from space before," he said."

 

[gcthomas]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-14/record-coverage-of-antarctic-sea-ice/5742668


"Satellite imagery reveals an area of about 20 million square kilometres covered by sea ice around the Antarctic continent.

Jan Lieser from the Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Cooperative Research Centre (CRC) said the discovery was made two days ago.

"This is an area covered by sea ice which we've never seen from space before," he said."

Further quote from the same source:

CEO of the Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems CRC, Tony Worby, said the warming atmosphere is leading to greater sea ice coverage by changing wind patterns.

"The extent of sea ice is driven by the winds around Antarctica, and we believe that they're increasing in strength and part of that is around the depletion of ozone," he said.​

So this is evidence of global warming: predicted from theory then observed in reality.

 

[resurrected]

... the warming atmosphere is leading to greater sea ice coverage ....

:darwinsm:


good one! :thumb:

 

[The Barbarian]

So this is evidence of global warming: predicted from theory then observed in reality.

The denier response is typical. First claim the prediction is absurd, and later when the prediction comes true, claim it's wrong.

That's pretty much all they have now.

 

[rexlunae]

Here's are two predictions that I feel absolutely confident making.

1. Food prices are about to get a lot higher as a fairly direct result of climate change.

2. Most of the people arguing against the scientific consensus here will not notice or will not understand why food prices are so much higher.

 

[The Barbarian]

"Fat, dumb, and happy" may soon end up just "dumb", then?

 

[resurrected]

after all the angst over american obesity levels, this should be seen as a good thing :idunno:

 

[tetelestai]

I don't care what Al Gore said. You political fixations have nothing to do with the science. Save it for someone who cares what Algore says.

You act like Al Gore was the only Chicken Little saying the Arctic sea ice was going to melt away completely.

The following is from September 17, 2012:

Arctic expert predicts final collapse of sea ice within four years

"One of the world's leading ice experts has predicted the final collapse of Arctic sea ice in summer months within four years."

Like I have said dozens of times, you Chicken Littles had a field day when the Arctic ice was melting years ago. But now that it's grown over a million square kilometers the last two years, you guy are left looking like the Chicken Littles that you are.

However, instead of admitting you were wrong, you're doubling down on the hoax.

 

[rexlunae]

You act like Al Gore was the only Chicken Little saying the Arctic sea ice was going to melt away completely.

The following is from September 17, 2012:

Arctic expert predicts final collapse of sea ice within four years

"One of the world's leading ice experts has predicted the final collapse of Arctic sea ice in summer months within four years."

Like I have said dozens of times, you Chicken Littles had a field day when the Arctic ice was melting years ago. But now that it's grown over a million square kilometers the last two years, you guy are left looking like the Chicken Littles that you are.

However, instead of admitting you were wrong, you're doubling down on the hoax.

It is melting away. The last two years don't change that fact, they just demonstrate that weather varies from year to year. Climate doesn't change on that short a time-scale. It is you who is in denial. You've been denying the problem all along, just waiting for a short-term reversal like this to latch onto.

 

[tetelestai]

It is melting away. The last two years don't change that fact, they just demonstrate that weather varies from year to year. Climate doesn't change on that short a time-scale. It is you who is in denial. You've been denying the problem all along, just waiting for a short-term reversal like this to latch onto.

Um.....then why did Al Gore, the scientist in the article I linked, and thousands of other Chicken Littles say the Arctic could be ice free by 2014?

You guys who subscribe to the hoax sure have selective memories.

 

[rexlunae]

Um.....then why did Al Gore, the scientist in the article I linked, and thousands of other Chicken Littles say the Arctic could be ice free by 2014?

Al Gore is not a scientist. But it was an estimate. And probably not too unreasonable.

You guys who subscribe to the hoax sure have selective memories.

About what exactly?

 

[tetelestai]

Here's are two predictions that I feel absolutely confident making.

You, and all your Chicken Little friends have been wrong with just about everything since the first Earth Day in 1970.

Let's take a look at what the Chicken Littles said back then:

Behold the coming apocalypse as predicted on and around Earth Day, 1970:

1) "Civilization will end within 15 or 30 years unless immediate action is taken against problems facing mankind." — Harvard biologist George Wald

2) "We are in an environmental crisis which threatens the survival of this nation, and of the world as a suitable place of human habitation." — Washington University biologist Barry Commoner

3) "Man must stop pollution and conserve his resources, not merely to enhance existence but to save the race from intolerable deterioration and possible extinction." — New York Times editorial

4) "Population will inevitably and completely outstrip whatever small increases in food supplies we make. The death rate will increase until at least 100-200 million people per year will be starving to death during the next ten years." — Stanford University biologist Paul Ehrlich

5) "Most of the people who are going to die in the greatest cataclysm in the history of man have already been born… [By 1975] some experts feel that food shortages will have escalated the present level of world hunger and starvation into famines of unbelievable proportions. Other experts, more optimistic, think the ultimate food-population collision will not occur until the decade of the 1980s." — Paul Ehrlich

6) "It is already too late to avoid mass starvation," — Denis Hayes, Chief organizer for Earth Day

7) "Demographers agree almost unanimously on the following grim timetable: by 1975 widespread famines will begin in India; these will spread by 1990 to include all of India, Pakistan, China and the Near East, Africa. By the year 2000, or conceivably sooner, South and Central America will exist under famine conditions…. By the year 2000, thirty years from now, the entire world, with the exception of Western Europe, North America, and Australia, will be in famine." — North Texas State University professor Peter Gunter

8) "In a decade, urban dwellers will have to wear gas masks to survive air pollution… by 1985 air pollution will have reduced the amount of sunlight reaching earth by one half." — Life magazine

9) "At the present rate of nitrogen buildup, it's only a matter of time before light will be filtered out of the atmosphere and none of our land will be usable." — Ecologist Kenneth Watt

10) "Air pollution...is certainly going to take hundreds of thousands of lives in the next few years alone." — Paul Ehrlich

11) "By the year 2000, if present trends continue, we will be using up crude oil at such a rate… that there won't be any more crude oil. You'll drive up to the pump and say, ‘Fill 'er up, buddy,' and he'll say, ‘I am very sorry, there isn't any.'" — Ecologist Kenneth Watt

12) "[One] theory assumes that the earth's cloud cover will continue to thicken as more dust, fumes, and water vapor are belched into the atmosphere by industrial smokestacks and jet planes. Screened from the sun's heat, the planet will cool, the water vapor will fall and freeze, and a new Ice Age will be born." — Newsweek magazine

13) "The world has been chilling sharply for about twenty years. If present trends continue, the world will be about four degrees colder for the global mean temperature in 1990, but eleven degrees colder in the year 2000. This is about twice what it would take to put us into an ice age." — Kenneth Watt

My favorite is the last one.

1. Food prices are about to get a lot higher as a fairly direct result of climate change.

2. Most of the people arguing against the scientific consensus here will not notice or will not understand why food prices are so much higher.

Come on Chicken Little, you have to sound more scarier than that.

 

[GuySmiley]

11) "By the year 2000, if present trends continue, we will be using up crude oil at such a rate… that there won't be any more crude oil. You'll drive up to the pump and say, ‘Fill 'er up, buddy,' and he'll say, ‘I am very sorry, there isn't any.'" — Ecologist Kenneth Watt.

He thought there would still be full service gas stations? What an idiot.