Can someone deny the Deity of Christ...? - BATTLE ROYALE I - Freak vs. me again

[Freak]

Opening Remarks

Opening Remarks

This debate is centered around this question:

Can someone in the current dispensation of grace deny the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and still become a member of the Body of Christ?

The answer is clearly no!

Why?

For the following reasons:

1. "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." Jesus Christ was claiming the Divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.) Jesus declared rather clearly in this verse that you must believe He is God in order to have your sins forgiven. A denial of this truth will result in one dying "in their sins".

2. It is not simply enough to have faith, for faith in faith is not good enough. Faith is only as valid as what it is put in (in this case Jesus being very God). You must put your faith in the proper object (Jesus being very God). Cults (like the Christadelphians, Mormons, Jw's) have false objects of faith (denial that Jesus is very God); therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are. If you put your faith in a door knob, then you will be in a lot of trouble on the day of judgment (only Jesus who is God is able to save). You might have great faith, but so what? It is in something that can't save you. Only God is able to forgive sins so you must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness of sins. A denial of this truth is a basic denial of who He claimed to be.

3. The Apostle John says the following: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world" (see 1 John 4).
The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by the Apostle John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh. 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist. A anti-Christ is one who is not a member of the Body of Christ.

4. The Scriptures teach what is known as the "The Hypostatic Union - That Jesus is both God and man.
The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ - The blood atoning sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay the debt for the sins of the world. As God - Jesus must be God (note: must be God) to be able to offer a sacrifice of value greater than that of a mere man (one cannot deny this basic truth). He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that (you must believe this). As man - Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man. As a man He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).

These are a few reasons why I believe the Scriptures teach that one cannot "deny the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and still become a member of the Body of Christ."

 

[me again]

First Post (of me again)

First Post (of me again)

Opening Statement

Using the scriptures, I will attempt to show you that a man who accepts the Lord Jesus as:

• the Christ
• the Messiah
• and as the Son of God

May enter the kingdom of heaven. However, there are additional stipulations. He must also believe:

• that Christ was crucified for us, to absolve our sins.
• that Christ died.
• that Christ rose from the dead, physically.
• that Christ sits at the right hand of God in power and in authority over all creation.
• that Christ is coming again, physically to this earth and every eye will behold him.
• that no man can get to the Father, except through Jesus.

The true Christian must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart, nothing misgiving.

While I personally accept the Deification of Christ, is this acceptance an entry-level tenant of and for salvation? Must a man believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God in order to go to heaven? The answer is ”No.” However, there will come a point when all who enter the kingdom of heaven will behold that the Lord Jesus Christ is, indeed, God in the flesh. Nonetheless, I re-raise the question: Is this a tenant for entry-level salvation? Again, the scriptural answer is clearly ”No.”

There are no scriptures that stipulate that a man must confess ”Jesus is God” in order to be saved. The scriptures do indicate that we must confess Jesus as our Lord if we wish to be saved. However, this elemental requirement is not the same as saying that "Jesus is God."

In our next post, we will:

• Examine the scriptures that support this opening statement.
• Rebut Freak's first post.

End of Opening Statement

 

[Nathon Detroit]

ALL POSTS WILL BE DELETED FROM THIS THREAD EXCEPT FOR FREAK'S and "me agains" - and of course mine (Knight).

If you want to discuss this topic or this debate please visit the BATTLE TALK thread.

That is the end of round #1. Freak is back on the clock and there are 19 posts per combatant to go. Good luck gentlemen and may God be with you both.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

P.S. Excellent formatting and length of round one - great job combatants!

P.S.P.S. I may not notice unwarranted posts immediately so please be patient. I will delete them as fast as I see them. In fact you may want to shoot me OR BECKY an e-mail if you see one that hasn't been deleted yet.

Unwarranted posts = posts in this thread made by anyone other than Freak, me again, Knight or Becky.

 

[Freak]

Clearly the Holy Scriptures teach that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved...

Clearly the Holy Scriptures teach that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved...

Allow me to go back to my opening remarks:

1. "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." Jesus Christ was claiming the Divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.) Jesus declared rather clearly in this verse that you must believe He is God in order to have your sins forgiven. A denial of this truth will result in one dying "in their sins".

Is spite of what the Scriptures teach, Me again, says: There are no scriptures that stipulate that a man must confess ”Jesus is God” in order to be saved.

:up: Looks like to me that the Holy Scriptures teach quite clearly that you must believe Jesus is "I am" (God).

In my second point I said:

2. It is not simply enough to have faith, for faith in faith is not good enough. Faith is only as valid as what it is put in (in this case Jesus being very God). You must put your faith in the proper object (Jesus being very God). Cults (like the Christadelphians, Mormons, Jw's) have false objects of faith (denial that Jesus is very God); therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are. If you put your faith in a door knob, then you will be in a lot of trouble on the day of judgment (only Jesus who is God is able to save). You might have great faith, but so what? It is in something that can't save you. Only God is able to forgive sins so you must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness of sins. A denial of this truth is a basic denial of who He claimed to be.

According to Me again one can: "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart" and deny He is God and still be a Christian. So, Me again, does it matter if the Mormons who believe Jesus with all their heart and that they believe He is the brother of the devil begotten through sexual intercourse from a god and goddess who used to be people on another planet (see Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 321)? Do we need to know who this Jesus is? My Savior, Jesus Christ, is God.

A look at 1 Corinthians 15 points the Gospel out rather clearly in the light of the Scriptures I have mentioned: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures" (NIV).
Within these verses are the essentials of the Christian Faith: Jesus Christ is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9); Salvation is received by faith in Christ (John 1:12; Rom. 10:9-10), therefore it is by grace; and the resurrection is mentioned in verse 4. Therefore, this Gospel message automatically includes the essentials. You cannot divorce the Jesus who is declared as God as being nothing else but God in this passage (1 Corinthians 15).

Again, we see the clarity of God's Word. You cannot deny who Jesus is (He is God) and be a geniune believer in the light of these clear Scriptures.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Battle Royale T-Shirts now available!

Battle Royale T-Shirts now available!

Order yours today!

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[me again]

SECOND POST (of me again)

SECOND POST (of me again)

To prevent this post from becoming too long, I will do two things:

• I will place my initial rebuttal to Freak’s thesis in this post
  
  -- and --
  
• I will expound on my opening statement in a different post.

Rebuttal

• [*]Freak‘s Point #1:
  
  "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." Jesus Christ was claiming the Divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.) Jesus declared rather clearly in this verse that you must believe He is God in order to have your sins forgiven. A denial of this truth will result in one dying "in their sins".

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the great ”I AM.” The burning bush that spoke to Moses was none other then Jesus!!! However, the Greek ego eimi in John 8:58 and in John 8:24 does not prove your thesis that ”a man must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” I will expound on what the scriptures say about salvation when I expand on my opening remarks. But first, I want to address your thesis.

Let’s examine the verbatim words of Jesus in the scripture that Freak is using to support his thesis:

• John 8:24
  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I interpret the words of Jesus as follows:

• I am the Messiah!!! I am the promised One!!! I am He who God has sent!!! You must believe in Me or you will die in your sins!!!

If we look at the sixth previous verse in John 8:16b, we clearly see that the scripture says that “Jesus is the Man whom God has sent.” Let’s review this scripture:

• Jo 8:16b
  . . . the Father that sent me.

If we put John 8:24 in the proper context, we see that Jesus is saying:

• That God sent Him
  
  -- and --
  
• That He is the Messiah.

Let’s look at some other translations, in addition to the KJV Bible to corroborate this:

• NIV
  I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. (John 8:16b) I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins. (John 8:24)
  
  NASB
  I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me. (John 8:16b) Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. (John 8:24)
  
  AMP
  I am not alone [in making it], but [there are two of Us] I and the Father, Who sent Me. (John 8:24) That is why I told you that you will die in (under the curse of) your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He [Whom I claim to be -- if you do not adhere to, trust in, and rely on Me], you will die in your sins. (John 8:24)

Jesus is claiming to be the Man whom the Father has sent!!! To suggest that this scripture (John 8:24) is telling us that we must confess ”Jesus is God” to be saved is unreasonable and unscriptural.

• [*]Freak‘s Point #2:
  
  It is not simply enough to have faith, for faith in faith is not good enough. Faith is only as valid as what it is put in (in this case Jesus being very God). You must put your faith in the proper object (Jesus being very God). Cults (like the Christadelphians, Mormons, Jw's) have false objects of faith (denial that Jesus is very God); therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are. If you put your faith in a door knob, then you will be in a lot of trouble on the day of judgment (only Jesus who is God is able to save). You might have great faith, but so what? It is in something that can't save you. Only God is able to forgive sins so you must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness of sins. A denial of this truth is a basic denial of who He claimed to be.

I am only going to comment on selected ideas from the above listed paragraph, to wit:

• Posted by Freak:
  You must put your faith in the proper object (Jesus being very God).

I can find no scripture that says, ”You must confess that Jesus is God to be saved.” If you will provide a scripture, I will examine it.

• Posted by Freak:
  Cults (like the Christadelphians, Mormons, Jw's) have false objects of faith (denial that Jesus is very God); therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are.

Faith is a matter of the heart and only God can see into the heart of a man. I am of the opinion that many cult members will be saved because of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. While they may have been born and raised in a cult, the Lord Jesus knows the sincerity of their heart towards Him. I think that it is wrong of you to automatically condemn a cult member to hell because you do not know the circumstances of their life. You do not know how they came to be in a cult. Neither do you know their relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. That relationship is special and is exclusively between them and Him.

There are many reasons why people join cults. Some are born into it. Some were enlisted as children, as teenagers or as adults through a myriad of ways that are too numerous to postulate here. The point is simple: People learn about Jesus through cults, through churches, through missionaries and, in select cases, through personal visits of Jesus Himself (my own case and the Apostle Paul come to mind). Once people learn about the Lord Jesus, the promptings of the Holy Spirit gently guides their hearts into His truths.

All of us are on different paths and we were all born into different circumstances. Some travel down the path of hard labor while a few are born into a life of wealth and ease. Our many different paths are restricted by caste systems, cultural biases, racial or ethnic differences, countries of origin and other innumerable differences. What is ironic is that the Lord Jesus Christ is familiar with the backgrounds and paths of each and every one of us, believers and unbelievers alike. He knows where our intellectual growth was stunted and, as our Chief Judge, he knows why it was stunted. He knows the obstacles in our paths that hindered us and that prevented us from becoming the full potential of “being created in the image of God.” But the battle for us isn’t over yet. He’ll take each and every case on an individual basis He’ll do two things:

• He’ll judge us righteously, as only He can do, based upon the knowledge that we have.
  
• He’ll improve us, no matter what our station in life is. We were a mess when we came to Him, but He did not reject us. He picked us up and stood us up on our feet and gave each and every one of us a ”special calling” that is unique to our life. Our calling is unique to us, to our lives, to our circumstances and to our surroundings. As a result of His calling upon our lives, those who are around us are blessed because of Him. When He blesses us, those who are around us are inevitably blessed. And it‘s all because of Jesus.

This same Jesus is looked upon by members of every nation, kindred, tongue and tribe of the earth. The salvic requirement is that we accept Jesus for who He is:

• The only begotten Son of God, the first fruits of many to come.

I can find no scripture that says ”Ye must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” Nay, not one.

• Posted by Freak:
  Only God is able to forgive sins so you must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness of sins.

No, I disagree with you. You have not provided one scripture to support your hypothesis. The scriptures clearly state that only faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, coupled with repentance, brings forgiveness:

• Rom 10:10
  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
  
  Act 2:38
  . . . Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins . . .

Jay, the following statement comes from you and you alone and it cannot be found in the Bible:

• Posted by Freak:
  You must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness.

You cannot legitimately turn this extra-biblical statement into a cannon of salvation. It is unscriptural.

• [*]Freak’s Point #3:
  
  The Apostle John says the following: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world" (see 1 John 4). The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by the Apostle John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh. 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist. A anti-Christ is one who is not a member of the Body of Christ.

I understand your attempt to correlate the above scriptures to fit your thesis, I simply disagree. Lets quote each of your referenced scriptures, from above, and see if the reader can come to Jay’s conclusion that “you must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.”

• Scriptures Posted by Freak:
  
  John 1:1,14
  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
  
  1Jo 4:2-3
  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

After reading these scriptures, I simply do not draw the same conclusion as you do, Jay. Nowhere does it say that we must believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved. These scriptures say that the Word was with God in the beginning and that He was made flesh and that anyone who denies that Jesus Christ came in the flesh is from antichrist.

• [*]Freak’s Point #4:
  
  The Scriptures teach what is known as the "The Hypostatic Union - That Jesus is both God and man. The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ - The blood atoning sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay the debt for the sins of the world. As God - Jesus must be God (note: must be God) to be able to offer a sacrifice of value greater than that of a mere man (one cannot deny this basic truth). He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that (you must believe this). As man - Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man. As a man He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).

Once again, I understand your attempt to correlate the above scriptures to fit your thesis, but I simply disagree and do not draw the same conclusions that you are drawing. Again, let’s quote each of your referenced scriptures to see if the reader can come to your conclusion that “you must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.”

• Scriptures Posted by Freak:
  
  1Jo 2:2
  And is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
  
  1Ti 2:5
  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Nowhere does it say that we must believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved. It simply says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the entire world and that He is the only mediator between God and mankind.

• [*]Freak’s Point #5:
  
  According to Me again one can: "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart" and deny He is God and still be a Christian. So, Me again, does it matter if the Mormons who believe Jesus with all their heart and that they believe He is the brother of the devil begotten through sexual intercourse from a god and goddess who used to be people on another planet (see Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 321)? Do we need to know who this Jesus is? My Savior, Jesus Christ, is God.

Let me address your points one-by-one:

• Posted by Freak:
  Does it matter if the Mormons, who believe Jesus with all their heart, and that they believe He is the brother of the devil, begotten through sexual intercourse from a god and goddess who used to be people on another planet, (see Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 321)?

Jay, it is difficult to address your question because within your question, your have levied a judgment that is reserved exclusively for God. You have judged their heart, in reference to their relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. You said:

• Posted by Freak:
  Snip…
  Mormons, who believe Jesus with all their heart…

In reference to their heart, I can only tell you what the scriptures tell us:

• Rom 10:9-10
  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

There are varying degrees of deception and of Biblical knowledge. As I stated earlier, I believe that some cult members will be saved, due to their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. For you to presuppose that a man is damned, just because he was born and raised and taught in a cult, is rather presumptuous of you. I would not want to be in your shoes on judgment day when you have to answer to the Lord Jesus Christ as to why you vociferously damned some of His sheep. But that is between you and Him.

• Posted by Freak:
  Snip…
  Does it matter if the Mormons believe is the brother of the devil, begotten through sexual intercourse, from a god and goddess, who used to be people on another planet…

Yes, I think it does matter. Again, there are varying degrees of deception. Conversely, do you acknowledge that you may be doctrinally deceived in some of your interpretational analysis’s of the scriptures? Or do you claim absolute knowledge in all scriptural areas, just as the Mormons do? If you are wrong in one doctrinal area (as the Mormons are), then are you damned (as you say they are damned)? Is your judgmental methodology a two-way street?

These are tough questions and I would not damn you, just as I would not damn the Mormons because that is reserved exclusively for God. I would not presume to levy His judgment on others because I do not know the circumstances of their lives. I don’t know what led them up to their deception. Neither do I know what led you up to your deceptive conclusion that ”a man must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” Neither do I judge your eternal destiny for your heretical conclusion.

Conclusion

In conclusion, Jay has not provided one scripture to support his thesis that ”a man must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” Jay has incorrectly used several scriptures as proof texts to incorrectly prove the validity of his thesis. I have taken every one of those scriptures and have contextually examined them here in this thread and have found that they do not substantiate his thesis.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

END OF ROUND TWO

END OF ROUND TWO

DING DING DING.

NOTE: "me again" your last response was a tad long. No big deal this time but's let's do our best to keep this easier to follow - short and sweet!

Good job combatants!

 

[Freak]

The Scriptural Evidence is Overwhelming...

The Scriptural Evidence is Overwhelming...

In this post I will demonstrate the overwhelming Scriptural evidence that points to the fact that no one can "in the current dispensation of grace deny the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and still become a member of the Body of Christ."

:up: In my first point I stated quite clearly: "Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." Jesus Christ was claiming the Divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.)

Your rebuttal was: I interpret the words of Jesus as follows:
I am the Messiah!!! I am the promised One!!! I am He who God has sent!!! You must believe in Me or you will die in your sins!!!

What about admitting that Jesus also claimed to be God, the great "I AM"? Which Jesus did in John 8. In fact, "I am" (ego eimi) occurs three times in this discourse and it points to the Divine Title of "I am". Every commentary I have looked at points this out (see The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Merrill C. Tenney). My points still stand uncontested: "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. You must believe Jesus is God. You cannot deny this truth.

Amazingly, you said (in response to my second point): I am of the opinion that many cult members will be saved because of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Apostle Paul says in response to your claim: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (NIV).

Me Again, the Jw's (a cult) have placed their faith in Jesus. Does that make them a Christian even though they believe in "another Jesus" (as Paul says in 2 Cor. 11). Even when the JW's teach that Jesus was the Archangel Michael?

Me Again, there is but one true Jesus Christ for men to receive salvation (Acts 4:12) and He is God (John 20:28). You cannot divorce this truth/reality from Him. To do so is a spiritual crime.

Your rebuttal of my third point was astounding. You said: Nowhere does it say that we must believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved.

I believe the Apostle John made himself clear in 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist. A anti-Christ is one who is not a member of the Body of Christ.

When John is speaking of Jesus here is he divorcing the fact He is Deity? Of course not? For he declared Jesus is God (John 1:1). So if you deny Jesus and who He is (while He was flesh He was God-simply cross reference to John 1:14) you cannot be of God.

My fourth point was not dealt with so let's try again. Jesus (who is completely God) is able to forgive sins. Could someone attain the forgiveness of sins from "a Jesus" who they did not believe was God? Could only God forgive sins (since Jesus is God) He is able to those who believe He is.

Your final rebuttal was quoting Romans 10. Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32 (Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered). In Joel 2 the writer is clearly referring to God as he mentions the Lord. Me Again, can someone make Jesus "Lord" (in essence God of their lives) but reject He is God? Did not Psalms 100:3 (and John 17:3) tells us to "Know that the Lord is God?" Who is the Lord Jesus but God which one cannot deny if they want to be saved.

 

[me again]

I (1473) am (1510) = ego eimi (in Greek)

I (1473) am (1510) = ego eimi (in Greek)

• Posted by Freak:
  You must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness.

No, you do not have to believe that Jesus is God to enter the kingdom of heaven and we’ll review some of your alledged proof texts that you used to support your erroneous thesis.

Shall we begin?

• Posted by Freak:
  I stated quite clearly: "Jesus said here that if you do not believe that “I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." Jesus Christ was claiming the Divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.)

Let’s note some interesting facts about the above:

• You are correct to note that the Greek ”I am” in Romans 8:58 and in John 8:24 is translated from the Greek ”ego eimi.” Let’s review those two scriptures for the reader:
  
  [*]John 8:24
  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
  
  Here, we note that Jesus is stating that if they do not believe that He is:
  1) The Messiah
  2) The promised One
  3) The One sent by God the Father
  Then they will be damned. Earlier in John 8:16b, Jesus said that He was sent by the Father:
  
  . . . the Father, who sent me. (NIV, NASB, AMP and NLT translations).
  
  Without accepting Jesus, then they will be damned. They must give their unconditional faith to Him to be saved. That is exactly what Jesus was saying to them. He was not saying ”You must believe that I am God to be saved.”
  
  Additionally and as you pointed out, the I am in this scripture is translated from the Greek ego eimi, but this does not prove that Jesus is saying ”Ye must believe that I am God to be saved.” Using your method of interpretational analysis, others in the Bible would be making the same claim of being the great I AM of the Old Testament. For example, the Centurion in the book of Matthew said:
  
  I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. (Matt. 8:9)
  
  The Centurion also used the same Greek words: ego eimi. However, using common sense, we understand that he is not claiming to be the great I AM of the Old Testament. You have incorrectly assumed that because the Lord Jesus used the Greek ego eimi, that He was claiming to be the great I AM. In this particular application in John 8:24, Jesus is claiming to be the Messiah. I must reiterate that in John 8:24, Jesus did not say ”Ye must believe that I am God to be saved.”
  
  Later, Jesus did claim to be the great I AM:
  
  [*]Joh 8:58
  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
  
  In this scripture, Jesus is claiming to be the great I AM, to wit:
  
  Exodus 3:14
  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
  
  We clearly see that Jesus is claiming to be the Voice that was speaking to Moses from the burning bush, but nowhere does it say ”Ye must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” While Jesus is divine, I can find no scripture requiring that this confession be made to be saved. You are adding to scripture when you tell people that this is a requirement to be saved.
  
  Now let’s review what the scriptures do say about the requirements for salvation:
  
  Rom 10:9-10
  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
  
  This one is my favorite because it is the one that the Lord used to save me. I was alone and was audibly praying to Him and I said, ”Lord, I guess I’m going to heaven because the Bible says that if we believe in Jesus with all our hearts, then we will be saved. Suddenly, He spoke to me in an audible voice and he said twice ”You will enter the kingdom of heaven. You will enter the kingdom of heaven.”
  
  At that time, I had no idea that Jesus was God in the flesh and, consequently, I did not believe it (of course, I didn’t disbelieve it either ). I had never made Freak’s extra-Biblical statement ”Ye must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.”
  
  The simplicity of this scripture is marvelous. It clearly says:
• We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord.
• We must believe that God raised Jesus from the dead.
• Because man believes with his heart unto righteousness (Isiah 54:17).
• And with the mough, confession is made unto salvation.
  
  Confession of what? Of the above scriptural tenants!!!
  
  Act 4:12
  Neither is there salvation in any other [name, except Jesus Christ]: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
  
  Only through the name of the Lord Jesus Christ can a man be saved.
  
  Rom 1:16-17
  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written. The just shall live by faith.
  
  We accept the Gospel of Christ for our salvation and, subsequent to that, we live by faith.
  
  Eph 1:10-13
  That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
  
  When we truly believe (with all our heart), then the Lord seals us with His Holy Spirit. But only He knows who is truly sealed. Many who claim to be His are not sealed with His Holy Spirit. They are living a lie. They have a form of Godliness, but they deny the power thereof.
  
  2Ti 3:15b
  The holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
  
  Only faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will save a man.
  
  Heb 5:9
  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
  
  We must obey Him.
  
  Heb 9:28
  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
  
  We must look for Him.
  
  1Pe 1:3-7
  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold thatperisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
  
  God’s power keeps us because of our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jay Bartlett, you have not presented a scripture that says ”You must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” Nay, not one.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

DING DING DING

DING DING DING

That's end of round three.

 

[Freak]

May We Go Back To The Topic Which Is...

May We Go Back To The Topic Which Is...

...Can someone in the current dispensation of grace deny the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and still become a member of the Body of Christ?

Can someone like a Mormon (someone who rejects the Deity of Christ) and who believe Jesus is a spirit brother of Lucifer be a member of the Body of Christ? I believe the Scriptures say with clarity-NO!

Second Corinthians 11:4 says, "For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached..."

The Jesus the Apostles preached was a Divine Jesus (see Col. 2:9, 2 Peter 1:1-4). There is but One Jesus that is revealed in the Scriptures and He is God. A denial of this basic truth denies you the salvation that the true Jesus offers.

Let's return to your attempted rebuttal of John 8, where Jesus clealry stated you must believe He is "I am" (God) to be saved. A denial of this will bar you from joining the Body of Christ.

:down: My concern exist with your poor treatment of John 8 and the clear sayings of Jesus. For you even claimed: "He was not saying ”You must believe that I am God to be saved.” You say this in spite of the overwhelming evidence that proves you dead wrong! Allow me to explain (for this is paramount-for Jesus claimed in this chapter you must believe who He claimed to be (God) in order to be saved). Though being a "scholar" does not guarantee instant infallibility in judgment, it should at least provide assurance of factual understanding. Given this, the scholars seem to feel that these passages in John 8:24 clealry state that Jesus claimed to be God:

Augustine wrote: "...the whole unhappiness of the Jews was not that they had sin, but to die in sins...In these words, 'Except ye believe that I am,' Jesus meant nothing short of this, 'Except ye believe that I am God, ye shall die in your sins.' It is well for us, thank God, that He said except ye believe, and not except ye understand."

Luther, like Augustine before him, wrote in no uncertain terms:

"The Lord Christ is angry below the surface and says: "Do you want to know who I am? I am God, and that in the fullest sense. Do as you please. If you do not believe that I am He, then you are nothing, and you must die in your sin." No prophet, apostle, or evangelist may proclaim and say: "Believe in God, and also believe that I am God; otherwise you are damned." Or...

William Hendrickson put it rather bluntly:

"The "I am" here (8:58) reminds one of the "I am" in 8:24. Basically, the same thought is expressed in both passages; namely, that Jesus is God!" Or...

Leon Morris has written,

" 'I am' must have the fullest significance it can bear. It is, as we have already had occasion to notice...in the style of deity." (in a footnote on same page "ego eimi in LXX renders the Hebrew ani hu which is the way God speaks (cf. Deut. 32:39; Isa. 41:4, 43:10, 46:4, etc.). The Hebrew may carry a reference to the meaning of the divine name Yahweh (cf. Exod. 3:14). We should almost certainly understand John's use of the term to reflect that in the LXX. It is the style of deity, and it points to the eternity of God according to the strictest understanding of the continuous nature of the present eimi. He continually IS. Cf. Abbott: "taken here, along with other declarations about what Jesus IS, it seems to call upon the Pharisees to believe that the Son of man is not only the Deliverer but also one with the Father in the unity of the Godhead" (2228)." Or...

A.T. Robertson certainly did not see any linguistic problems here:

"I am (ego eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God." Or...

The great expositor J. C. Ryle noted,

"Let us carefully note what a strong proof we have here of the pre-existence and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. He applies to Himself the very name by which God made Himself known when He undertook to redeem Israel."

In spite of this evidence Me Again claims that Jesus wasn't really claiming Deity in John 8. These Greek Scholars point to the fact that Jesus claimed God and you must believe He is God to be saved. In fact, all the translations bear this out, including:

King James, New King James, New American Standard Bible, New International Version, Philips Modern English, Revised Standard Version, Today's English Version, Jerusalem Bible, New English Bible, American Standard Version, New American Bible, etc.

As you can see the Greek Scholars, the translators, etc all see the "I am" in John 8:24, 58 (also in John 13:19, 18:5-6 which I will point out later in this post) as an absolute title for God. Jesus claimed to be God in this verse: Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." You cannot reject Him being Deity and still be a member of His Body. For His Body is made up of those who accept His Divinity. Another passage that clearly points to the reality that one must receive Him as God is John 13:19: "From now on I tell you before it comes to pass in order that when it does happen, you may believe that I am." Who is "I am" in this verse but God. A Greek transliteration points this out: hina pisteusete hotan genetai ego eimi.

Me Again, also states correctly: "We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord." But who is this Lord, isn't Lord rendered God. Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God? That is absurd. I remember dealing with this in my last post when I said: "Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32 (Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered). In Joel 2 the writer is clearly referring to God as he mentions the Lord." Better rethink this in light of what Jesus said in the Book of John. You better believe one must confess Jesus is God, a denial of this bars you from being a member of the Body.

In conclusion, in light of what the Scriptures state no one can call Him just "a god" (like the Mormons) or a great angel (like the JW's)that is not sufficient for faith. No! Jesus Himself laid down the truth and the truth is this: unless one believes Him for whom He says He is - the ego eimi - one will die in one's sins. There is no salvation in a false Christ (as Me Again would like for you to believe). If we are to be united with the Lord Jesus Christ to have everlasting life, then we must be united with the true Jesus Christ who is very God, not a false representation.

 

[me again]

The First Hurdle : The First Pillar : Romans 8:28

The First Hurdle : The First Pillar : Romans 8:28

We have a choice:

• We can either make "surface postings" composed mostly of our personal opinions without scriptural support
  
  -- or --
  
• We can do an expository analysis from the scriptures to support or bring down this issue, which you claim is salvational.

I propose that we dig deeply into this matter so that we can "rightly divide the Word."

We are starting to address too many various points, all concurrently. To give an expository analysis of everything that you have posted would probably take me a minimum of 500 pages of writing. I would like to save that for a doctoral dissertation, which could take four or five years.

Subsequently, I am going to stick with your first argument from John 8:24 and will not move forward until you either answer my comments to your analysis or, if you simply disagree and do not wish to state why, then that too will be acceptable to me. But you cannot ignore what I have written.

Having said that, I now move to your first pillar, Romans 8:28:

• Posted by Freak:
  Let's return to your attempted rebuttal of John 8, where Jesus clealry stated you must believe He is "I am" (God) to be saved. A denial of this will bar you from joining the Body of Christ.

How can we return to it when you did not give a rebuttal of my analysis of John 8:24? You have not commented on my posted analysis of it. For your sake, I will comment on John 8:24 for a third time. Let us post your scripture first, followed by your analysis of it:

• Analysis by Freak:
  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (John 8:24) Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.'

I will comment one last time on my analysis of your interpretation. If you do not give a rebuttal or a personal analysis in return, then I will assume that you do not wish to address the topic of John 8:24 any further.

Jesus said "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" because he was referring to Himself as the One whom God had sent to save the Jews from their sins. He clearly said this six verses earlier in John 8:16b when he said "the Father sent me." Jay, do you acknowledge this statement? You interpret Jesus as saying:

• [*]"Ye must believe that Jesus is God to be saved."

But I interpret Jesus as saying:

• [*]John 8:16b and John 8:24b
  
  If ye believe not that I am he [that was sent by the Father], ye shall die in your sins"
  
  -- or --
  
  If ye believe not that I am [the Messiah], ye shall die in your sins"
  
  -- or --
  
  If ye believe not that I am [the promised One], ye shall die in your sins"
  
  -- or --
  
  If ye believe not that I am [the Savior of Israel], ye shall die in your sins"
  
  -- or --
  
  If ye believe not that I am [the Savior of the world], ye shall die in your sins"
  
  -- or --
  
  If ye believe not that I am [the only one who can save you], ye shall die in your sins"

This scripture does not say "Yes must believe that I am God to be saved."

Now, let us move to your interpretative analysis of the Greek ego eimi and, after this (my third commentary on this), if you refuse to analyze it or comment on it, then I will believe that you either refuse to comment on it or you are unable to comment on it.

• Posted by Freak:
  In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.'

Yes, we agree on this, so when the Centurian said "I am" in Matthew 8:9, we clearly understand that this does not infer that:

• He is the great I AM
• He is saying that you must believe that he is God or else you will die.

He is simply referring to himself. That's all. Nothing more. There are no secret meanings in ego eimi. Let's look at the scripture itself, just to make it more clear:

• I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. (Matt. 8:9)

I have just given you two illustrations on why Jesus (in John 8:24) is not saying:

• "Ye must believe that I am God in order to be saved."

The theme of this particular post is to properly interpret John 8:24 and you can see how lengthy it has become. I will not move any further in this discussion until you either:

• Analyze or comment on my rebuttal of John 8:24.
• Or simply say that you disagree.

But you can't simply blow past my analysis without at least a comment. It doesn't have to be expository.

Before we begin posting 20 different (but related) topics, we must examine the pillars of your thesis. And Romans 8:28 is the first pillar that you posted as a crux for your argument.

What do you think of my analysis of your interpretation of Romans 8:28?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

DING DING DING

DING DING DING

That's the end of round 4

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Order yours today!

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

NOW HEAR THIS.....

NOW HEAR THIS.....

The length of this bout has been changed to 10 rounds. I repeat.... the length of "Battle Royale I" is now officially 10 rounds.

Which means EACH combatant has 6 more posts TOTAL to complete their argument.

 

[Freak]

I believe the Greek Text is Clear in this Regard!

I believe the Greek Text is Clear in this Regard!

The foremost Bible and Greek Scholars within Christendom agree that John 8:24: "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

Jesus Christ was clear-"For unless you believe I am, you will die in your sins."

Who is this "I am", well according to the Greek Text it refers to God. As understood by the finest Greek scholars in Christendom.

A.T. Robertson certainly did not see any linguistic problems here:

"I am (ego eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God."

Me Again are you telling me, that in your studies of the Greek Text that Dr. A.T. Robertson is incorrect in his understanding.

Was Augustine wrong too when he states: "...the whole unhappiness of the Jews was not that they had sin, but to die in sins...In these words, 'Except ye believe that I am,' Jesus meant nothing short of this, 'Except ye believe that I am God, ye shall die in your sins.' It is well for us, thank God, that He said except ye believe, and not except ye understand."

As was preeiment Greek Scholar, Dr. Leon Morris? He has written,

" 'I am' must have the fullest significance it can bear. It is, as we have already had occasion to notice...in the style of deity." (in a footnote on same page "ego eimi in LXX renders the Hebrew ani hu which is the way God speaks (cf. Deut. 32:39; Isa. 41:4, 43:10, 46:4, etc.). The Hebrew may carry a reference to the meaning of the divine name Yahweh (cf. Exod. 3:14). We should almost certainly understand John's use of the term to reflect that in the LXX. It is the style of deity, and it points to the eternity of God according to the strictest understanding of the continuous nature of the present eimi. He continually IS. Cf. Abbott: "taken here, along with other declarations about what Jesus IS, it seems to call upon the Pharisees to believe that the Son of man is not only the Deliverer but also one with the Father in the unity of the Godhead" Where was Dr. Morris wrong, me again, I'd like to know?

You said: If you do not give a rebuttal or a personal analysis in return, then I will assume that you do not wish to address the topic of John 8:24 any further

I did give you a rebuttal for your incorrect understanding of the passage in John 8. In fact to prove my point I have resorted to those who excell in the Biblical Languages to prove my understanding of the passage at hand. We have also seen how the context of the passages themselves (look at what happened when Jesus claimed I AM) - the setting and teaching of the entire book of John (also one needs to do is take a glance at John 1:1, 14, etc) - makes the identification of "ego eimi" and its clear presentation of the Deity of Christ inevitable. We have seen how Apostle John purposefully (was not mere accident) emphasizes these phrases (believe I AM), helping us to grasp their significance which we cannot ignore.

Unless you can point to me where these scholars are wrong in their understanding of the Greek in this passage, I will then assume you have nothing else to add to this debate regarding this passage.

Me Again, it has been well said that the Apostle John intends the entire Gospel to be read through the "interpretive window" of the beginning of chapter 1:1-18*where Jesus is declared as the Word and Word was God*. Given the teachings of those passages, can one seriously doubt(given the Greek Textual evidence) the meaning of ego eimi in the above examined passages?

****

Now, I'm still puzzled about this remark: "I am of the opinion that many cult members will be saved because of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ." Do you still stand behind this fallacy? Do you still believe the Mormons who placed their faith in a Jesus (that is not God) who is a spirit brother of lucifer(like the Mormons) or some great angel(like the JW's) are truly saved in the light of the clear Scriptures I have pointed out in John 8 and 1 John 4?

By the way I need some clarification regarding the statement: "We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord" I believe this but don't you believe the mere title "Lord" assumes He is God. For as I pointed out in my last post: Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God? That is absurd. I remember dealing with this in my last post when I said: "Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32 (Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered). In Joel 2 the writer is clearly referring to God as he mentions the Lord." When Paul is speaking of confessing Jesus Lord is he not in essence saying you must confess Him (Jesus) as God, in light of the rendering of Joel 2 in relation to Romans 10?


I am also worried you did not deal sufficently with my remarks regarding First John. The Apostle John says the following: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world" (see 1 John 4). The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by the Apostle John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh. 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist. A anti-Christ is one who is not a member of the Body of Christ

I believe I rest my case.

 

[me again]

So much for sticking with Romans 8:28

So much for sticking with Romans 8:28

If we're not going to stick with Romans 8:28, then it will be impossible to do an expository study on it. It will also be impossible to keep these postings short.

Well, I have a hunch that you’re not going to provide any scriptures to prove that a man is damned if he does not accept that Jesus is God.

Posted by Freak:
Jesus Christ was clear-"For unless you believe I am, you will die in your sins."

Yes, you keep reiterating your mantra without scriptural proof.

Posted by Freak:
Who is this "I am", well according to the Greek Text it refers to God.

I presume you aren’t going to offer any new scriptures?

Posted by Freak:
"I am (ego eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God."

He does not do that in John 8:24, but He does do that in John 8:58. This still does not prove your extra-biblical statement that:

Posted by Freak:
You must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.

I’m waiting for you to prove it with the scriptures.

Posted by Freak:
I did give you a rebuttal for your incorrect understanding of the passage in John 8.
We have also seen how the context of the passages themselves (look at what happened when Jesus claimed I AM) - the setting and teaching of the entire book of John (also one needs to do is take a glance at John 1:1, 14, etc) - makes the identification of "ego eimi" and its clear presentation of the Deity of Christ inevitable. We have seen how Apostle John purposefully (was not mere accident) emphasizes these phrases (believe I AM), helping us to grasp their significance which we cannot ignore.

You never touched upon the use of ego eimi in the context of the Centurion. How does the Centurions use of ego eimi differ from that in John 8:28?

Pray tell?

Posted by Freak:
Unless you can point to me where these scholars are wrong in their understanding of the Greek in this passage, I will then assume you have nothing else to add to this debate regarding this passage.

Many people enjoy quoting:

• Augustine
• Joseph Smith
• Leon Morris
• Mary Baker Eddy
• Abbott
• Ellen G. White
• A.T. Robertson
• et al

Many people enjoy the opinions of these other men and if you enjoy reading their writings, I’m happy for you. But instead of using their interpretations, I would prefer to stick to the scriptures and to your interpretation of them, based upon your own studies. Besides, if I wanted to use other authors, I too could ”cut-n-paste“ their opinions.

Posted by Freak:
I am also worried you did not deal sufficently with my remarks regarding First John. The Apostle John says the following: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world" (see 1 John 4). The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by the Apostle John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh. 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist. A anti-Christ is one who is not a member of the Body of Christ

Using ”cut-n-paste,” you have re-asked the exact same question (above) without giving specifics. Specifically, what is it that you disagree with? Before I attempt to answer your questions in greater detail, let’s first review the reply that I gave to your above listed quote:

Posted by me again:
I understand your attempt to correlate the above scriptures to fit your thesis, I simply disagree. Lets quote each of your referenced scriptures, from above, and see if the reader can come to Jay’s conclusion that “you must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.”

• John 1:1,14

• 
  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
  
  1John 4:2-3 [/I]
  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

After reading these scriptures, I simply do not draw the same conclusion as you do, Jay. Nowhere does it say that we must believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved. These scriptures say that the Word was with God in the beginning and that He was made flesh and that anyone who denies that Jesus Christ came in the flesh is from antichrist.

I’m not sure how to say it in more simple terms than what is already posted: The scriptures that you referenced (above) say three things:

• 1) The Word was made Flesh.
• 2) Every spirit that says that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh is not of God.
• 3) The above two points are the spirit of antichrist.

How do you construe that the above listed scriptures say:

Posted by Freak:
You must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.

I simply do not see how you obtain the above quote from the scriptures that you referenced. This worries me.

Posted by Freak:
By the way I need some clarification regarding the statement: "We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord" I believe this but don't you believe the mere title "Lord" assumes He is God. For as I pointed out in my last post: Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God? That is absurd. I remember dealing with this in my last post when I said: "Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32 (Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered). In Joel 2 the writer is clearly referring to God as he mentions the Lord." When Paul is speaking of confessing Jesus Lord is he not in essence saying you must confess Him (Jesus) as God, in light of the rendering of Joel 2 in relation to Romans 10?

I am of the opinion that the Lord Jesus is one in mission and one in purpose with the Father, yet they are two separate beings. For example, when a policeman knocks on your door and when you ask ”Who is it?” and when he replies ”Police Department,” you know that the entire police department is not standing outside your door. But that officer is one with his department: And you recognize that fact. He comes with the full authority of his agency.

I also believe that Michael the Archangel was actually the Lord Jesus Christ in his pre-human birth form. He came here with the authority of the Father. He is one with our Father, yet they are two separate entities. When the Second Coming occurs, the Lord Jesus Christ will come with the full authority of our Father.

I said all of this to answer your question:

Posted by Freak:
Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God? That is absurd.

Yes, I deny that Jesus is God the Father. He is God the Son and He carries the full authority of our Father. When you say:

Posted by Freak:
You must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.

Are you referring to:

• God the Father
  
  -- or --
  
• God the Son?

Therein may lie some of our difficulties in our inability to agree. I am of the opinion that you believe that Jesus is the Father. Am I correct?

Posted by Freak:
Now, I'm still puzzled about this remark: "I am of the opinion that many cult members will be saved because of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ." Do you still stand behind this fallacy?

Your phraseology is rather interesting. If I dsiagree with you (which I do), then you leave me no choice but to reply ”Yes, I still stand behind this fallacy.” LOL

Yes, a man may enter the kingdom of heaven if he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart. His trust must be in Jesus and not in his denomination, not in other men and not in himself. His faith must be in Christ alone. He may wear the title of Jehovah Witness or Mormon or another Christian offshoot, even though they have many false teachings.

Let me ask you a question in this regard. If a child is born into a cult (choose Mormonism or Jehovah Witness or whatnot) and if he is indoctrinated into their theology all his life: then that may be all he knows because that‘s what he grew up in and that‘s all he was ever taught.

He wanted to make his parents happy because he was an obedient child, so he went to church and studied his Bible and, during the course of his “cult required studies,” they made him read about Jesus. Consequently, during his solitary prayer time, he accepts Jesus as his savior. He remains a faithful cult member up until the age of 15, whereupon he is killed in a terrible accident.

Are you telling the reader that that young man is hell bound because he wears the mantle of a “cult member?”

Posted by Freak:
Do you still believe the Mormons who placed their faith in a Jesus (that is not God) who is a spirit brother of Lucifer (like the Mormons) or some great angel (like the JW's) are truly saved in the light of the clear Scriptures I have pointed out in John 8 and 1 John 4?

Once again, your phraseology is unique. You are trying to force me, the square peg, into your round hole. If I disagree with you (and I do), then you leave me no alternative but to egregiously say ”Yes, I believe that people can be saved by the spirit brother of Satan.” LOL -- Jay, why are you trying to force such nonsense into my mouth?

If a cult member goes to heaven, it is through the Lord Jesus Christ and through Him alone. If a Buddhist or a Hindu or a Moslem or [insert the person’s name here] goes to heaven, it is through Jesus. Jesus is the only way. Jesus is the only ticket. Jesus judges the heart and not you nor your labels.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

DING DING DING

DING DING DING

Thats the end of round five. Battle Royale I is halfway over!

Freak, is back on the clock

 

[Nathon Detroit]

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