God's Truth
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What is your point?
Can someone answer this?
- Thread starter WatchmanOnTheWall
- Start date
What is your point?
The Passover was killed on the afternoon of the 14th day of the first month relative to the vernal equinox. The Passover was eaten that night on an annual Sabbath celebrating Israel's redemption from Egypt.
We observe the NT Passover each year to celebrate our redemption from spiritual Egypt.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Okay so you've not got it.
I agree the Passover lamb was killed on the afternoon of the 14th but it was not determined by the vernal equinox but by the 14th day from the new moon (day 1) of Aviv and the Month of Aviv could not start until the Barley crop was determined (by the Sanhedrin) to be ripe enough to be made into fine flour, which was needed for the day of first fruits (day 16), to be offered as a burnt offering on the alter of incense in the temple:
Leviticus 23:9-11
9 The LORD said to Moses, 10 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you, and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain your harvest (The first grain of the barley harvest). 11 He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath (The Sabbath was day 15 and the Day of first fruits day 16).
If the Sanhedrin thought the Barley was not going to be ripe enough when the new moon became visible from Jerusalem (on day 1 of the month), they would call it month 13 (Adar II) and by the next month (Aviv) it would be ripe enough.
Do you believe the Jews used the visually sighted new moon to determine the beginning of each month? If not I will show you the verses.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Hi God's Truth. Okay so reading my post what did you understand? Because my point is in the post.
It is simple to understand: You simply do not have any evidence at all to support this idea. You keep going on about how intelligent you are, but you do not have any idea of what evidence is, and apparently your high IQ has drained away your common sense.
Hillel II changed the method of determining the beginning of a new month, from observation to calculation. That is well known and there is historical evidence for this in Jewish sources. That does not mean that he changed the way weeks are counted. And oddly enough- there is no record of that supposed change.
You are obsessed with an idea that is just plain wrong.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Good, you are beginning to understand some of what I have been explaining. Yes that is basically all true but I am trying to get you to look at what happened in 46BC not 359AD. As I said:
Take a look at this time line diagram below:
God's week (year 1)------------------------------------(today)
.............................Roman week (46BC)---------(today)
The Romans implemented the current calendar's 7 day week we use today in 46BC before this date they used a very strange calendar that had 8 day weeks plus an extra day for market (making 9 day weeks) and it only had 10 months!. Now the important bit is the Romans did NOT make sure that the new 7 day week of the new Julian calendar that we use today was matched to the Jewish 7 day week used by the Jews in Israel. Does that make sense to someone here (anyone)? Here is some info on the old Roman 8/9 day week calendar and the Julian calendar that we use today:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar
The chances of the current 7 day week matching the Jewish week is only a 1 in 7 chance. Are you able to find the evidence that shows the Greek Mathematician Sosigenes (who Julius Caesar employed to create the Julian Calendar) got these two different calendar weeks to match up? Because no one else can!
So what?
Either he got the idea from the Jews, or the 1 in 7 chance panned out. You have not provided any evidence that the Jews took it from the Romans. None.
edit- from your own link:
The 7-day week began to be observed Italy in the early imperial period,[42] as practitioners and converts to eastern religions introduced Hellenistic and Babylonian astrology, the Jewish Saturday sabbath, and the Christian Lord's Day. The system was originally used for private worship and astrology but had replaced the nundinal week by the time Constantine made Sunday (dies Solis) an official day of rest in ad 321. The hebdomadal week was also reckoned as a cycle of letters from A to G; these were adapted for Christian use as the dominical letters.
Also- it would have been a huge revolution in Judaism to shift the Sabbath day. And nobody noticed?
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
You are misunderstanding what I am asking:
1. I am saying that there is no proof the Romans took it from the Jews. Not the other way round.
&
2. I am asking for proof that the Romans (the Greek Mathematician Sosigenes) matched it the the Jewish calendar, because to my knowlegde there is no proof.
And therefore it is a 1 in 7 chance they match and that 90%+ of Christians:
A. Don't know any of this
&
B. If they do know then they are putting their faith in God using a Greek (pagan) Mathematician to do His work. (Which of course is not impossible).
Do you understand this now?
Please read my post again. Including the part I added when I edited it.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Yes I've read it. I and know what you're trying to get me to understand:
The 7-day week began to be observed Italy in the early imperial period,[42] as practitioners and converts to eastern religions introduced Hellenistic and Babylonian astrology, the Jewish Saturday sabbath, and the Christian Lord's Day. The system was originally used for private worship and astrology but had replaced the nundinal week by the time Constantine made Sunday (dies Solis) an official day of rest in ad 321. The hebdomadal week was also reckoned as a cycle of letters from A to G; these were adapted for Christian use as the dominical letters.
And I will come to that as soon as you confirm that you understand what I have said in my last post.
The first day of Passover week began the night of the full moon following the vernal equinox.
I understand what you are saying. But I also understand that there is no proof that the Jews took it from the Romans. You are trying to shift the burden of proof off of your own shoulders.
It is possible, given that Jews and Christians lived in the Roman Empire . I personally do not know of proof of this , though the reference in the Wikipedia article (a text in French) may offer proof. There are those who are researching this.
But they do match. So there are three possibilities:
1. They match by chance
2. They match because the Romans were influenced by other groups, as the Wikipedia article suggests
3. That the Jews and Christians abandoned their ancient traditions, and left absolutely no record of a major calendar change.
Know what? That you and a handful of others have an odd unproven theory?
Again- you are presuming that your theory is correct. It isn't, so this is not a real point.
I have always understood you. And you are promoting an extremely odd theory that has no basis in facts or evidence.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
The Barley had to be ripe, this was the deciding factor not the Vernal Equinox because if the Barley was not ripe enough then they would have nothing to offer to God on the day of First Fruits (Day 16 Aviv).
The Babylonian calendar however did use the the vernal equinox because they did not make the offings the Jews had to make but apart from that it was identical to the Hebrew calendar except for the names of the month.
As said the Jews had to make these offerings as God had told them to:
Leviticus 23:9-11
9 The LORD said to Moses, 10 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you, and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain your harvest (The first grain of the barley harvest). 11 He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath (The Sabbath was day 15 and the Day of first fruits day 16).
(That all said, the Barley is usually ripe by the first full moon after the vernal equinox but the Jews in no way could count on this happening every year and is why the Sanhedrin had to check the Barley themselves each year at the end of month 12 (Adar).
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
I consider this a break through. You may say you've know this all along but after days of getting to this point I feel I can now begin to have a proper discussion about this issue, that I have been trying to explain.
However, first I will echo some of what that articular suggest; Yes this is being debated because as you can see there are several options but one you must also consider is that the Julian weekly Sabbath and the ancient Jewish Sabbath do not match. To dismiss this option is not rational.
However, even ignoring that option the debate remains and that is because no one has to date found any evidence in any extra-Biblical sources to confirm whether they do match or not.
Apart from the fact that Sosigenes or Julius would have had no reason to even pay any mind to the Jewish calendar (just one of hundreds that existed at that time) and every reason to ignore it (Jews were hated by Romans), there is in fact absolute evidence that proves the two Sabbaths are completely divorced from each other and this proof is found in the most reliable historical document known to mankind; The Bible.
Which brings me full circle to where are conversation began, and now with your 'refreshed' knowledge about this on going Sabbath debate I hope you will consider reading and watching more of the original information, that I gave you in the beginning.
When I came across this debate for myself the first article I came across that helped me to shed light on this subject and gave me the answers I needed to solve this issue was from John D Keyser – founder of Hope of Israel ministries, yes it is a long article, which is why I gave you a shorter version of it (which you did read thankfully and I hope you will now consider reading this too?):
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/sabtosat.htm
Failing that the videos are another way of seeing the evidence too:
15 mins (or faster with the high speed setting):
International Date Line Change: The Sabbath Unchanged by Worlds Last Chance Ministries?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sUyZpM5xls
109 min (or faster with the high speed setting):
Robert-Aaron Richmond explains from scripture how God’s Calendar works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJq8tKvnemU
Jacob's people were brought out of Egypt when God gave his festival instructions.
"On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord’s Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord, seven days you must eat unleavened bread." (Leviticus 23:5-6)
This is what the people did.
Passover was never based on the barley harvest.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
I never said the Passover was based on the barley harvest, I said the day of first fruits is. I'm not talking about the Passover, I'm talking about the day of first fruits that is always held on the 16th Aviv. Aviv can't start without the barley being ripe enough to be made into fine flour as it says in:
Leviticus 23
Offering the Firstfruits
9The Lord said to Moses, 10“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. 11He is to wave the sheaf before the Lord so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath. 12On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the Lord a lamb a year old without defect, 13together with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephaha of FINE FLOUR mixed with olive oil—a food offering presented to the Lord, a pleasing aroma—and its drink offering of a quarter of a hinb of wine.
Can you see where it says 'FINE FLOUR'? Fine flour can only be made from barley which is ripe. Barley was the crop that was offered in Aviv while the wheat which ripens later is offered on Shavuot - The Festival of Weeks, which Christians call Pentecost:
Leviticus 23
The Festival of Weeks
15“ ‘From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, count off seven full weeks. 16Count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then present an offering of new grain to the Lord. 17From wherever you live, bring two loaves made of two-tenths of an ephah of FINE FLOUR, baked with yeast, as a wave offering of firstfruits to the Lord.
Again can you see where it says FINE FLOUR?
These offerings are prophetic (just like the lamb was), the first fruits offering represents Jesus' resurrection at first fruits (16th Aviv). Jesus ascended to heaven on this day as the first fruits offering from mankind to God. And at Pentecost the Holy Spirit was given to mankind.
Do you understand this?
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
That's the point right there; you gave up.
I can't force you to look at the evidence, it's up to you to study it and understand it. Which at the moment you don't. As I said I have about a 140 IQ and this may be part of the problem in others not readily understanding it, after all I suppose it is quite complicated and I personally didn't see it till after 15 years of study as a Christian but then again I also believe God helped to reveal it to myself.
The other 'barrier' is sheep mentality; The Bible often likens people to sheep and we are all easily lead by the flock (mainstream thinking) and mainstream Christianity doesn't even know about this debate that is happening around the Sabbath, the other barrier is pride, admitting that we may be wrong. I mean look at yourself, you claimed to know all this for 50 years! A typical reaction by someone trying to save face.
I know many intelligent people, and none of them go around flaunting their IQ numbers. I suspect most don't even know what their IQ is. I certainly don't.
I have examined your supposed evidence. There is nothing there. I did not give up on understanding your theory. I understand it all too well- and it is nonsense. I have given up on you.
It makes you feel good to think you know something that the rest of the world doesn't know, that you are so so smart, and everybody else is sheep.
Well, IQ doesn't guarantee common sense.
Any traditional Jew knows the basics of our calendar. I wasn't trying to "save face". I know how the lunar and solar years work. Known since I was a child. The change from observation to calculation is well-documented in Jewish sources, and is not a secret.
What isn't documented anywhere at all is a "week" that matches the lunar month exactly, as you claim, and that varies in length from 7 to 9 days. It doesn't even fit what the Bible says about working 6 days and resting the 7th. There is no record of this anywhere at all. Not even the Karaites have such a thing.
Go back to your hole.
Chair, PhD. Fluent in Hebrew and English. Reads Biblical Hebrew and ancient Aramaic. IQ: unknown.
Go back to your hole, obnoxious brat. Come back when you have a real source.