Calvinist "proves" Love Omnipotent doesn't love everyone
- Thread starter GregoryN
- Start date
I can see how Calvinism leads many in that direction. The Bible God of Love is nothing like Calvin's god.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
This is so untrue it can only be stated by someone who thoroughly misunderstands both Calvinism and the love of God.
What gives you that opinion?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I would say I am at least close to the Calvinist mindset on this topic. And I would disagree with this logic (whoever wrote it). Just because God can do something, doesn't mean He will. So just because God can save everyone, it doesn't follow that everyone will be saved.
For contrast, the Arminian says that not everyone is saved because not everyone chooses to be saved. Even for the Arminian, God's power is sufficient to save every last human who ever lived. The difference between the Calvinist and the Arminian is that the Calvinist sees man in a state whereby he is incapable (neither willing) to choose God. So it never would happen that anyone would be saved unless God moves Sovereignly. The Arminian logic may sound more plausible here, but it fails because man really has already chosen. In The Arminian scheme, it really ends up being even more capricious than the proposed Calvinist outworking (God may change His mind) because if man changes his mind, then the Arminian has only man's consistency to rely upon (not God's). And if God does not repent (change His mind), then salvation is a far more sure thing.
So I reject all 4 conclusions. I do believe that God loves everyone - just not the same. Otherwise, we could make the leap from :
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Matthew 5:44-46
and...
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 7:11-12
....to saying that God saves the just and the unjust (which is not stated in scripture). That God is good and loving - I agree with that. That man is wicked yet can still give good gifts - I agree with that. But there is a leap to be made when you have to say that a wicked man can (of himself) turn from idols to serve the Living God. Because that is where man is naturally. Man is born self-centered and only by the revelation of God can he see himself for what and who he is. So there isn't a man alive who will naturally follow God. That has to be the work of God (John 6:44). Men might tolerate some of what scripture says, but they will never be found in Him without a radical change - whether immediate or gradual. Ye must be born again.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36
How can the wrath of God abide (remain) on someone if it isn't already there? And the denial ("shall not see life") is not time limited. It is that the individual will not see life. Period.
So this matter of salvation is beyond a mere reckoning over destiny. It is a fundamental assessment of what a man is. God's choice of men is not arbitrary. There are things unseen that God is after. Otherwise, the church's purpose wouldn't be anything beyond getting men into heaven. God will judge the world in righteousness. The secrets of men will be judged by the gospel. And if all things will be done with no one complaining of unfairness or justice withheld, then all those whose trust is in their own goodness will be justly judged as outside of Christ and without hope (Romans 3:19-20). There will be no excuse (Romans 1:20). And what exactly is being judged? If men are not necessarily bad (naturally), why would men reject God so overtly as Romans 1 depicts? Is God just judging choices or is there something more fundamental at work here? If it were a choice, then a man could take credit for his own choice of God. Experience alaone tells us that just isn't the case with someone who is truly converted. So does God love that idolater any less? By no means. But again, what is He judging? There is something deeper than a choice. Something more profound that goes to the real nature of things (sorry to be so vague...this is a hard thing to convey). And we simply cannot see those things as God does. We will eventually, but we don't now.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you agree with the Calvinists that only some people are able to believe the gospel and the others are blind to its truth from birth and will remain blind?
Thanks!
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I'd say it's a possibility. God consigned entire peoples to destruction in the OT simply because they were idolatrous (whether they knew the Law of God or not). The same God hardened several generations of Israelites because of the sins of their fathers. Whole hosts of Israelites were judged because their religious leaders would not let them come to Christ (Matthew 23:37). The point is that what God calls fair and what God calls just are not what man necessarily does. God's judgments will be just. On that scripture is abundantly clear. And there will be no complaints. So whether what God does is considered fair or not (by man) is not the basis upon which He will judge. And if that means that someone is severely limited in their exposure to the gospel (including simply not being able to believe) then I don't see that contradicting with scripture. But I also believe God's judgments will be far more detailed and precise on an individual and on a national level then we can fathom.
I think you will also find that the Calvinist (except maybe some of the extreme variety) will tell you they don't know who those are who will reject it and so they are not enjoining anyone to turn from preaching the gospel to everyone. Rather, it is a further support in the belief that it is God who has to open the eyes and ears of the hearer and so the one delivering the gospel is not beholden to the perspective of the one they are delivering it to (felt needs etc...) but rather need only be true to the Word and be a faithful servant that way. God does the rest.
ttruscott
Well-known member
The only problem with this answer - GOD does NOT love everyone - I can see is in the doctrine of unconditional election which essentially claims there is NO REASON GOD doesn't love someone but does love another!
IF they were to make themselves totally and eternally unlovable by sinning the UNFORGIVABLE SIN, then what's wrong with HIS not loving those HE must condemn to banishment for the sake of HIS heavenly marriage since a little leaven leavens the whole lump??? Even so, while living on earth these reprobate still get to bask in HIS love, receiving the same sun and rain as everyone else!
But Calvinism insists there was no reason for HIS choice of who to save so there was also no reason for HIS rejection of those HE did not choose - a fact that would seem to be a perfect reason to cause the rebellion of those passed over for election !! Pretty stenchy....
Nanja
Well-known member
Rom. 9:20-21
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Job 23:13
But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
The cause of rebellion was in the Garden when Man sinned against the Holy God. From that moment mankind has been born corrupt and is naturally in rebellion to the Creator.
To imagine that people, realizing they have not been ransomed by God would be the cause of their rebellion is just silly thinking.
Not being ransomed would be a cause of rejoicing as a rebel would be thankful he hadn't been caught.
There is a reason why people will weep and gnash their teeth against God. They will hate God for justly bringing them to account for their rebellion.
It's funny that you would think rebels would be caused to rebel even more because they were not ransomed by God.
Rom.9:16 So then, it is not of the willing, nor of the running, but of God showing mercy.
Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
Nanja
Well-known member
Rom. 9:15-16;, 11:32 apply to exclusively to God's Elect, His Vessels of Mercy Rom. 9:23.
However, the vessels of wrath God prepared to be destroyed.
Rom. 9:22-23
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.
As The Supreme Being, God has Purposed this within Himself.
Eph. 1:9-11
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
However, the vessels of wrath God prepared to be destroyed.
Rom. 9:22-23
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.
As The Supreme Being, God has Purposed this within Himself.
Eph. 1:9-11
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
ttruscott
Well-known member
So when you can't answer a question you tell the questioner to shut up? That is not the answer I got from GOD when we discussed this...
ttruscott
Well-known member
I was referring to the non-elect Satanic rebellion of course as the election was before the foundation of the world and the angels at least were there at that time.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit is not sufficient in itself to allow all people to see its light?:
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).
The gospel is hidden to those who are perishing and the god of this age, Satan, is responsible for the gospel being hidden from them. Satan blinded their minds to the gospel for one purpose, "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel."
The fact that the minds of those who are perishing can be "blinded" to the gospel proves that they have the ability to see it if their minds were not blinded to it. After all, one must be able to see before being blinded can happen.
This demonstrates that even those who are perishing have the ability to believe the gospel and as a result receive salvation. Therefore, it cannot be denied that the Lord's death and the blessings which flow from that death have the potential to be applied to even those who are perishing.
ttruscott
Well-known member
I agree - no works. righteous or evil, of a man in his earthly life caused or influenced his election in the least. Therefore this verse is inapplicable to my contention that our free will decisions before the creation of the physical universe were the missing reasons for HIS election of some and the non-election of others.
...even those condemned already? I don't think so. I do agree all sinners are born as men imprisoned on this prison planet Earth in the chains of the darkness of being unable to understand spiritual things. Some can have their chains broken, others cannot.
everyone is actually 'all', pás
HELPS Word-studies
3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).
3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies."