BRXII Battle talk

[PKevman]

Perhaps because the pagans have human empathy? Maybe they actually love their neighbor and don't think they will someday rejoice to see their fellow man thrown in to a fiery pit to be tortured forever.

Straw man.

 

[PKevman]

What you are forgetting is that many universalists don't believe its a literal fire.

I know that. But Stephen says that he and I only disagree on the eternality of it.......Stephen?

 

[logos_x]

Straw man.

....couldn't last very long in a literal lake of fire.

 

[logos_x]

I know that. But Stephen says that he and I only disagree on the eternality of it.......Stephen?

no...it is not literal. The symbology of fire is that fire refines or changes things, and brimstone...as I've pointed out, was used very specifically in biblical times...

θεῖον
theion
Thayer Definition:
1) brimstone
1a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease

From the root word...

θεῖος
theios
Thayer Definition:
1) a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks
2) spoken of the only and true God, trinity
2a) of Christ
2b) Holy Spirit
2c) the Father

Very interesting words that the Holy Spirit chose here...aren't they?

 

[PKevman]

What you are forgetting is that many universalists don't believe its a literal fire.

Ok so lets follow this. Christian Universalism bases its argument that the following passages don't mean eternal:

Daniel 12:2

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 18:88 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Revelation 14:9-11

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Ok so if we take out all of the everlastings and eternals there we still have a whole lot of fire and torment. So that isn't good enough. So now SOME Universalists also have to take the literal fire out as well. This is why Universalism at its core root does not actually believe and teach the Bible. I have known and debated Universalists who would finally admit this after much talk. Will any of you?

 

[PKevman]

no...it is not literal. The symbology of fire is that fire refines or changes things, and brimstone...as I've pointed out, was used very specifically in biblical times...

θεῖον
theion
Thayer Definition:
1) brimstone
1a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease

From the root word...

θεῖος
theios
Thayer Definition:
1) a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks
2) spoken of the only and true God, trinity
2a) of Christ
2b) Holy Spirit
2c) the Father

Very interesting words that the Holy Spirit chose here...aren't they?

Ok so then we do in fact disagree on far more than just the eternality of the Lake of Fire? Thank you for clearly admitting that.

 

[PKevman]

The only exception is that Hell is eternal, it is rather...a part of the process some will go through and not an end in itself. I have presented scriptural and historical evidence in support of this belief. No one is saying that anyone should wait until our shoes are on fire to do something about the flames...the issue is if one is in the flames is there no hope at all, and it really isn't very good news if you say there isn't any if you are talking to someone who has lost someone they love that they are sure God didn't save.

If Christian universalism was teaching "wait and see" then you would have an argument. But we don't teach anything like that.

I'm sorry Stephen but you have contradicted yourself.

 

[logos_x]

Ok so lets follow this. Christian Universalism bases its argument that the following passages don't mean eternal:

Daniel 12:2

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 18:88 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Revelation 14:9-11

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Ok so if we take out all of the everlastings and eternals there we still have a whole lot of fire and torment. So that isn't good enough. So now SOME Universalists also have to take the literal fire out as well. This is why Universalism at its core root does not actually believe and teach the Bible. I have known and debated Universalists who would finally admit this after much talk. Will any of you?

You've missed the point.

IF it is eternal...it accomplishes nothing and it is punishment just for punishments sake.
If it is corrective and remedial...then it cannot be eternal unless it never accomplishes the correction or remediation sought after.

Now...is God about punishment just for punishments sake forever...or about saving all men? If He is about saving all men, then all His actions, even His punishments, are about making THAT happen and not keeping men in sin for all eternity or paying for sins that Christ already paid for.

The Apostle Paul, for one, states that in the end all things will be in subjection TO Christ, not away from Him, so that God may be all in all. He also says in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him. This tells me He isn't interested in seeing billions burn forever, but in gathering all things in Christ. He CAN"T do that if Hell is permanent and something He cannot overcome...can He?

 

[logos_x]

I'm sorry Stephen but you have contradicted yourself.

Well..it might appear that way...but I really thought you had not defined Hell as a literal burning fire forever. I thought you had in mind a kind of separation from God...not some multiple billions of people writhing in a literal burning fire for all eternity.

You really cannot comprehend how monsterous this sounds?

 

[Nineveh]

Direct question asked Nin, regarding a specific scripture.

You dodged, dave. Why? Is it because you really want to believe it's just sin going to the lake?

 

[Aimiel]

If Christian universalism was teaching "wait and see" then you would have an argument. But we don't teach anything like that.

It's more like...since we know Christ will bring everything into subjection to Himself...why wait at all.

No, it is exactly 'like' you're teaching the original lie, "You shall not surely die," re-packaged. It may be 'New and Improved!!!" but it is still a lie.

 

[Nineveh]

1: That God is all in all, he reconciles his entire creation, he puts everything - and evryone into subjection to himself, that he accomplishes his own will in the fullness of time.

Logos has already pointed out there are limits to that "all", like death, and hell. If the subjection of death and hell can take place in the lake, why not "those not found written in the Book of Life"?

2: oh i very much suspect you're right on that one, i could have achieved 'prophet' status myself....

But you seem to keep insisting we dialog.

Who so often display the characteristics of compassion/empathy and love for their fellow being that many Christians could learn from, your idea of sticking two fingers up is a very strange one,

You are the one trying to define what being in rebellion is, apart from Scripture.

oh what a joke! Its you who claim that people live for themselves and love themselves Nin - not me!

It's their own personal reasons for rejecting Christ.

my friend was around when I was in the pentecostal church, we'd both heard people saying one of our freinds - who was 15 - was hellbound for eternal torment through those who believe like yourself, what I "need" to do NIneveh is be a friend as much as I can for someone who I care about very much and pray for his recovery as well as for him to come to faith,

In a worst case scenario, what if they don't repent and die? Another guilty conscience for you to have an excuse to hold onto to the idea of them repenting "age during". Why not preach the Gospel to them while they still have hope?

Oh and what would you have me tell my friend who's just lost his dad? That unless he repented he's awaiting a fiery torture pit for eternity? And what of those who have already died and left behind loved ones coping with the grief and the loss and their pain, another insidious part of your message of ET, the pain in this life doesnt matter, I seem to recall one person who thought differently and had his heart moved with compassion several times for those who were suffering - do you know who he was?

The truth comes out. It's much better to lie and offer false comfort and false hope. I'm sure it does make you feel better.

You were addressing one verse in question, one which doesnt mention hell or a lake of fire at all without it being interpreted to do so

That's what happens when you jump into someone else's convo. You may want to go back and try to follow along. You might notice I was indeed speaking of the whole Bible.

subjugation TO God.....and then God is all in all, this can hardly be cutting them off!

Subjugation means bringing into submission.

EEGADS! Do you really believe God is or ever will be "is all in all"? You really need to think about this before you answer.

But God doesnt - and in that particular verse ALL pretty obviously means ALL.....

I know that's what you need to believe to support your docrtrine.

 

[Nineveh]

And...you didn't answer the question. Was that a dodge or a ram?

You first.

So the people who hold your view believe. But that isn't the only way to put an end to sin...in fact, it doesn't put and end to it at all. All this says is that God, in the end, acquiesces to evil and allows it to continue forever. This is a God soft on sin.

Sin, along with all the other garbage is "put away" or "cut off". That pretty much puts an end to it where God's realm is concerned.

It has no limits.

Tell you what. Instead of dodging the first question again, why not pick up from there. You already admitted ALL has limits, now that you see where that is going, you want to change course. Get your head straight and be consistant, then we can start from there.

 

[Nineveh]

Just a curiosity question for Nin, PastorK, Aimiel, and others who believe in the eternal torment doctrine:

If you had your druthers, which view would you PREFER to be correct? Which would strike you as the better, more morally, emotionally, and spiritually satisfying result?

A) God brings all beings to his breast -- some directly, and some through the fire, but all coming eventually to be cleaned out and made perfect for him, to serve him and rejoice with him forever?

B) God gives sinners (the majority of humanity) indestructable bodies and leaves them all to a fate of eternal conscious torment?

I expect some will say, "It doesn't matter what I think...," and maybe ultimately that is true, but I am still interested in hearing which scenario you, personally, would prefer.

I have the same desire as God, that everyone repents and accepts Christ.

 

[Nineveh]

If Christian Universalism taught that, I would be at your side Nin, denouncing it with all my strength.

It does not teach that. :nono:

I said: "Maybe you should share the gospel with your friend? Instead of reinforcing their idea they are "good enough"..." and "Telling them they surely are good enough to stand before the Righteous Creator God without being cleansed in the Blood of the Lamb."

One of the universalist proponents on this thread right now teaches this, among other unbiblical things. If they are wrong on that point, perhaps they are just as wrong on this one. That is why I suggested you might want to preach humility to the one who does not know what humility is.

Besides the one who preaches these ideas, why are you adressing me about my reply to red77? Those ideas are glaringly obvious in red's posts.

 

[Nineveh]

Again, I have to ask, are you aware that wheat and chaff are part of the same
plant in the field?

This particular scripture has nothing to do with sheep nor goats, nor wheat and
tares. It has to do with wheat and chaff.

Christ is the winnower who seperates the chaff from the wheat. The wheat
is saved and the chaff, the waste, the sins, are cast into the fire and
destroyed.

Plain reading. If sheep and goats were involved, they would eat the wheat,
and there would be an entirely different message. But they are not, not in
this text. Wheat, chaff, Christ, winnowing, fire. That's all.

Just as I suspected. God becomes the author of confusion so dave can preach his own personal gospel.

 

[Nineveh]

Hey I have lost people that I don't know if they were saved. So I know that pain. All I can do is hope for the best. But I don't blame God if they weren't saved. My aunt committed suicide, but guess what she was raised in a good home with a mom and dad and 12 siblings who loved her. They all loved her. Everyone in the family was torn to pieces when she did it. Torn to pieces. My grandfather was a great preacher who impacted so many lives for Jesus Christ, but he died at a young age of an illness, and many in the family never overcame that, including my aunt. She gave at times evidence of salvation, but then she ended her own life while battling depression in her mid-30's. She left behind 4 children including two young babies. Would a child of God do this? I think not. There is nobody to blame but herself however. She rejected the truth of God's Word that was all around her. She wouldn't talk to the people who loved her. I loved her very much. She could have talked to me, though I was a teenage boy. She didn't. Man that hurt.
I will not pervert God's Word and the gospel of grace and salvation to sugar coat things and believe a lie. I won't.

Amen and amen.

The heart breaks to lose a loved one who's salvation is questionable But this should be our incentive to preach the Truth more.

 

[Nineveh]

Not for everyone, Kevin. There are millions of human beings who have died who have never even heard of Jesus or YHWH. But they're all getting the same eternal punishment....

That is not true.

...for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse

...for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them

 

[Ecumenicist]

That is not true.

...for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse

...for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them

By this witness and interpretation, people are better off not knowing the good
news.

If we share the good news of Christ and that good news is rejected, we are risking
the condemnation of those who reject the Word to eternal torment.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Just as I suspected. God becomes the author of confusion so dave can preach his own personal gospel.

I'm sorry that you find a straight forward quote from Scripture confusing.