BRXII Battle talk
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Kimberlyann
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And all mankind will see God's salvation.(Luke 3:6 NIV)
AND ALL FLESH WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD.' (Luke 3:6 NASB)
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. (Luke 3:6 KJV)
AND ALL FLESH WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD.' (Luke 3:6 NASB)
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. (Luke 3:6 KJV)
Kimberlyann
New member
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom 5:16 The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment {arose} from one {transgression} resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 5:16 The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment {arose} from one {transgression} resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Kimberlyann
New member
1Cr 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1Cr 15:21 For since by a man {came} death, by a man also {came} the resurrection of the dead.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Cr 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
1Cr 15:24 then {comes} the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Cr 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Cr 15:27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Cr 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
1Cr 15:21 For since by a man {came} death, by a man also {came} the resurrection of the dead.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Cr 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
1Cr 15:24 then {comes} the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Cr 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Cr 15:27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Cr 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Obviously you don't believe that Scripture is divinely inspired. The Holy Ghost allowed David to describe what happens to someone who ends up in hell, and He wasn't trying to decieve anyone, He was trying to get The Truth across to us. Jesus re-iterated and more fully described this place of torments, so that men would shun it. Denying it's existence is to call The Lord a liar, plain and simple.solarb said:
Kimberlyann said:
:tunes:
"Men shall worship Him"
Worship= Shachah=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07812&version=
"Every one" = Xya=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0376&version=
"From his place" = Maqown=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0725&version=
"And all the isles of the heathen"
Heathen= Gowy=
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01471&version=kjv
Zeph. 3:8,9
The purpose of our Lord's burning anger and zeal and devouring?
Our Lord speaks of bringing all men "all of them" to worship Him with one consent, from their place, as He purifies lips to call upon Him. The bringing by God ov all men, leads to banqueting in our Father's Banqueting Hall.
All men, even the isles of the "heathen" serving the Lord shoulder to shoulder!
PKevman
New member
Redfin said:
Its already in the Battle Royale. Sorry if you missed it, but I don't like repeating myself over and over again. When someone shows you things that clearly fly in the face of Universalism you refuse to look at it and consider it. How about you suggest to Stephen he ask that question in the debate and I would be glad to answer it again as I have all of his questions.
God bless and have a good day!
PastorKevin said:
pastor - I think the very nature of this debate causes people to (hopefully) question the points, I have a couple of questions for you which I would appreciate your answers on (when you have time of course, i understand things are a bit busy....!)
Having read your last post I am still bewildered as to the misconception you cling on to regarding universalism, the 'psycho chef' being IMO totally ludicrous, no universalist that i'm aware of believes that God will 'force' people into being with him at all, rather that once a person comes to a full knowledge of the truth they would willingly want to be with God, its inconceivable to me that you think that people would somehow not want to be....!
whats more - even if we were to take the hypothetical scenario that God did in fact force people to be with him it would hardly make him any less psychopathic than in forcing people into a literal lake of endless burning fire!!!! How many people do you think if they were given the choice out of being roasted alive or not being roasted alive would pick option A.....?!
Secondly your response regarding the passage of 'Jesus gave himself a ransom for all to be testified to in due time', when I confronted you with this passage your answer at the time was that the testification had occurred at Jesus's death on the cross, now it seems that you believe it to be something about the apostles testifying afterwards......how does either make sense?
It doesnt make any sense for Jesus's ransom to have been testified at the time of the cross because the passage actually describes jesus's death as a past event which would be testified to at a future point in time....if it meant what you would seem to believe then the passage would read Jesus gave himself a ransom for all which was testified at the time (or at least words to that effect)....it seems pretty straightforward that this passage indicates that all men will be ransomed in due time.......unless what seems very straightforward on the face of it has to be contexturalised to fit into a set belief?
It seems to be something that you accuse universalists of doing constantly but passages such as the above and "God being the saviour of all men especially of those who believe" are hardly allowed to read as what they say on the surface in your doctrine.....they have to fit in with a doctrine that simply wont allow them to be read for what they say ...
If God wills or desires all men to come to a knowledge of the truth then I believe he'll accomplish his desire - and come from that starting point instead of automatically believeing that God cant or wont because of fallible men.....!
As another poster here has already pointed out you seem either incapable or unwilling to notice any symbolism at all in revelation, passages that seem swamped in allegory you will read as literal events - and yet literal passages such as the above verses you will try and read some type of deep contextural meaning into them......it hardly smacks of consistency......
Kimberlyann said:
Yes, Kimberlyann, the subjection of all things unto himself is guaranteed by none other that the One who has endorsed the statement "by Myself" and "as I live, saith the Lord." And, lest we think for a nano-second that the subjection of all things, and the "putting under" of all things is one of mere subduing, think again! The subjection of all things under His glorious feet, is the same subjection of the Son to the Father, that God may be all in all....that is pas in pas.
Subdue = hupotasso
Put under = hupotasso
Glassjester,
Mt. 26:24 "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." (New American Standard)
________________________________________
But look at the NASB Footnotes
FOOTNOTES:
Literal { for him if that man had not been born }
The literal translation is:
“but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for him if that man had not been born."
If you know how to use Strong’s you can check out this translation for yourself.
What a surprise. God does it again. He wrote another important verse that must be sought out in order to understand.
This verse can reasonably be read two ways. The question is, “Who is the him, in the ‘for him’.”
“but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for him if that man had not been born."
Why doesn’t the verse clearly say, “It would have been better if that man had not been born.” That would have been clear. But it doesn’t.
Here is how this verse can be read,
“but woe to that man (Judas) by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) had not been born.
Young’s Literal Translation gets it right too:
but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is delivered up! good it were for him if that man had not been born.'
Glass, in my attempt to head something off at the pass, please don’t say this doesn’t have validity because the numbers aren’t on my side. You know that is meaningless. Traditions can be good or bad. They "prove" nothing.
Just deal with the verse. Do your own literal translation.
Mt. 26:24 "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." (New American Standard)
________________________________________
But look at the NASB Footnotes
FOOTNOTES:
Literal { for him if that man had not been born }
The literal translation is:
“but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for him if that man had not been born."
If you know how to use Strong’s you can check out this translation for yourself.
What a surprise. God does it again. He wrote another important verse that must be sought out in order to understand.
This verse can reasonably be read two ways. The question is, “Who is the him, in the ‘for him’.”
“but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for him if that man had not been born."
Why doesn’t the verse clearly say, “It would have been better if that man had not been born.” That would have been clear. But it doesn’t.
Here is how this verse can be read,
“but woe to that man (Judas) by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) had not been born.
Young’s Literal Translation gets it right too:
but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is delivered up! good it were for him if that man had not been born.'
Glass, in my attempt to head something off at the pass, please don’t say this doesn’t have validity because the numbers aren’t on my side. You know that is meaningless. Traditions can be good or bad. They "prove" nothing.
Just deal with the verse. Do your own literal translation.
CabinetMaker said:
would i have to accept your offer on good faith ot would be able to see some evidence of the money first, its a bad analogy, you believe that people are condemned for not believeing in something they cannot see.......
,
It says 'every' knee will bow and 'every' tongue confess - to the glory of God right? How would having people confessing before being carted off to suffer interminably bring glory exactly
which is where much of the debate over the original greek comes into play, 'age of the ages' etc...
So unbeliefe isnt actually a sin then....? :think:
what direct question have you posed to me exactly? all I've seen is you saying that God has spoke to my heart and will I answer....Hence I told you to look at my icon, my avatar is a wolf and my icon is 'Christian'....and to be honest it seems more to me that no matter what verses are supplied to you which seem crystal clear in their words - without any need for contexturalisation - you will try and contrive them yourself in order for them to fit your own doctrine, there's nothing contrived about the passage "God is the saviour of all men especially of believers" unless you have to try and twist it.....i dont need to - i can read it along with many other passages and see a wonderful divine plan - no contrivance necessary....
Then please explain what you believe the lake of fire to be CM - literal? Allegorical...? and why do you believe it to be one or the other, the truth should be crystal clear although whichever one you do believe there's plenty of those who believe in ET who would believe the opposite....the doctrine of ET is full of inconsistency, I've seen it first hand in the church I used to be in, there's more confusion among those who ascribe to it than anything else and it was yet another reason (as well as the nauseating horror of it) that I began to see no truth in it, I believe that God has declared what will be too CM, that Jesus' ransom was for all and that it will be testified in due time why dont you believe that?
Kimberlyann
New member
What does Paul mean when he says that Jesus is going reconcile all things to Himself?
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, {both} in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Col 1:19 For it was the {Father's} good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, {I say,} whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, {both} in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Col 1:19 For it was the {Father's} good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, {I say,} whether things on earth or things in heaven.
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