BRXII Battle talk

[Ecumenicist]

If that is what it takes to get into Heaven, works (receiving chastening and correcting one's behavior) then The Word of God is a lie. Universalists never cease to amaze me with the amount of hogwash they peddle by quoting piles of false teachers and then not understanding the simplest of Kingdom concepts. atrol:

Either cleansed, or purged would have been a better word, perhaps, and that is
Biblical, and requires no works on anyone's part.

 

[Ecumenicist]

I'll add a third word, used by Christ, which is healing. Either cleansed, purged, or
healed would have been a better word.

 

[red77]

I fail to see where those not found in the Book of Life aren't in subjection.

How is God 'all in all' if people are separated from him in aliteral or even symbolic lake of fire? How does this tie in with God bringing the whole universe into subjection to him? I dont see any hyperbole in this verse......... :think:

 

[logos_x]

Just what does it really mean to be in subjection to Christ so that God may be all in all?

Seems to me that if you believe in eternal torment, it forces a rather twisted view of just what that means.

 

[Nineveh]

How is God 'all in all' if people are separated from him in aliteral or even symbolic lake of fire?

That would make Him Just, Judge, Righteous, etc. If He isn't those things, it appears you make Him further from all of those things, not closer.

How does this tie in with God bringing the whole universe into subjection to him? I dont see any hyperbole in this verse......... :think:

For those who will not submit with their hearts, how else would one go about bringing them into submission? Letting them have free reign?

 

[logos_x]

That would make Him Just, Judge, Righteous, etc. If He isn't those things, it appears you make Him further from all of those things, not closer.



For those who will not submit with their hearts, how else would one go about bringing them into submission? Letting them have free reign?

You are assuming they will NEVER submit...the Bible says otherwise.

 

[Nineveh]

If your response had something to do with my post, I might have something to say... :think:

If you don't have anything to say, by all means, please don't feel compelled.

I understand the blatent is often ignored in favor of the mystical, so I'm not shocked you didn't catch on. Anyway, if all you have to add to this thread is patting your buddies on the back and taking swings at your opponents instead of offering rebuttals or points, please just utilize the rep system.

 

[Nineveh]

You are assuming they will NEVER submit...the Bible says otherwise.

Rather, you want to read into the Word. This point has been gone over a bajillion times. Would it be prosperous to go over it again... really?

 

[Nineveh]

Redfin? Red77? Dave? Logos?

What does "all in all" mean to you?

 

[logos_x]

Redfin? Red77? Dave? Logos?

What does "all in all" mean to you?

All things, in the dispensation of the fullness of times, being in Christ and then Christ bringing all things in God. All the work of the Devil destroyed, sin death and Hell included....you know, God all in all!

 

[Nineveh]

All things, in the dispensation of the fullness of times, being in Christ and then Christ bringing all things in God. All the work of the Devil destroyed, sin death and Hell included....you know, God all in all!

No, I don't know what you think this phrase means. That's why I asked. In fact, after reading your answer I'm still not sure. Could you please be a bit more specific?

 

[logos_x]

No, I don't know what you think this phrase means. That's why I asked. In fact, after reading your answer I'm still not sure. Could you please be a bit more specific?

Everyone is saved...in the end.

Bottom line...we could never get there if eternal torment, as a mathematic guantitative state, is true.

 

[Nineveh]

Everyone is saved...in the end.

Bottom line...we could never get there if eternal torment, as a mathematic guantitative state, is true.

So God being "all in all" means "Everyone is saved...in the end."? Really? That's what that phrase means to you? You seemed to indicate it meant a bit more in your last post, I was hoping you would expand a bit.

 

[logos_x]

So God being "all in all" means "Everyone is saved...in the end."? Really? That's what that phrase means to you? You seemed to indicate it meant a bit more in your last post, I was hoping you would expand a bit.

It is what we have been arguing the entire time, nin.

What does it mean to you?

 

[Nineveh]

It is what we have been arguing the entire time, nin.

I know you have been arguing there is not eternal lake the whole time. I was merely asking you about this one phrase. Do you think it means God is the trees? Why are you making this simple thing so difficult?

What does it mean to you?

Obviously something completely different, because I don't get "all in all" meaning "everyone is saved...in the end." out of that phrase, nor that whole chapter. Nor the other two chapters that mention the use.

 

[logos_x]

I know you have been arguing there is not eternal lake the whole time. I was merely asking you about this one phrase. Do you think it means God is the trees? Why are you making this simple thing so difficult?

Nin...what do you want? I'm not trying to be difficult.
Death, sin, Hell...are destroyed. Mankind is in God, all creation in the freedom that attends the manifestation of the sons of God...and you want to find a tree to hug?

Obviously something completely different, because I don't get "all in all" meaning "everyone is saved...in the end." out of that phrase, nor that whole chapter. Nor the other two chapters that mention the use.

Well...that is why I ask. Why do you think God being all in all translates into torment without end? why do you believe that so many will continue to reject salvation forever?

God all in all...seems pretty plain to me.

 

[Nineveh]

Nin...what do you want? I'm not trying to be difficult.

Good

Death, sin, Hell...are destroyed.

So there are limits to that "all" right?

Mankind is in God, all creation in the freedom that attends the manifestation of the sons of God

Not all of mankind is in God though. No where do we find that idea, but the opposite. The narrow gate, the few, the remnant...

...and you want to find a tree to hug?

I'm trying to understand you. (Besides, it's not my witness that I submitted to God because God said their are birds in heaven, that witness belongs to someone else.)

Well...that is why I ask. Why do you think God being all in all translates into torment without end?

I don't.

whay do you believe that so many will continue to reject salvation forever?

The idea isn't far fetched for one thing. Men rejected God when they walked with Him in the garden, they rejected Him when He lived in their midst. They reject Him today for all sorts of odd reasons. Shedding skin won't make that big a difference in a man's heart if his heart loves himself best. Why should it?

God all in all...seems pretty plain to me.

Well good! Now how about sharing so your clear understanding is shared by us both?

 

[logos_x]

Good



So there are limits to that "all" right?



Not all of mankind is in God though. No where do we find that idea, but the opposite. The narrow gate, the few, the remnant...



I'm trying to understand you. (Besides, it's not my witness that I submitted to God because God said their are birds in heaven, that witness belongs to someone else.)



I don't.



The idea isn't far fetched for one thing. Men rejected God when they walked with Him in the garden, they rejected Him when He lived in their midst. They reject Him today for all sorts of odd reasons. Shedding skin won't make that big a difference in a man's heart if his heart loves himself best. Why should it?



Well good! Now how about sharing so your clear understanding is shared by us both?

This is the hub of the wheel. The doctrine of eternal permanent misery or separation from God forces one to believe that God being all in all means God isn't really all in all. Since Hell is eternal, we never really get there. Universal reconciliation sees this as what God is after...being all in all... therefore "Hell" must be something in line with that end. This means that Hell is corrective and remedial and not an end in itself.

I'm still not sure what it is you want. What is so hard to understand about God being all in all in the end?

 

[Nineveh]

This is the hub of the wheel. The doctrine of eternal permanent misery or separation from God forces one to believe that God being all in all means God isn't really all in all.

Wait... you said that.... "Death, sin, Hell...are destroyed.", remember?

Since Hell is eternal, we never really get there.

That was too esoteric for me. Want to put that into a more common idea?

Universal reconciliation sees this as what God is after...being all in all...

Except for a few things you listed.

I noticed you didn't bother addressing the idea throughout the Bible that it's the few who gain salvation, not "all". Nor did you address how men seem to look God in the face and reject Him.

therefore "Hell" must be something in line with that end. This means that Hell is corrective and remedial and not an end in itself.

What of the lake which is not destroyed? Anyway, that verse doesn't say "bring all things into correction" it says "subjection". It seems somewhere the Bible would offer that idea. That the lake of fire is temporary and give some smidgen of detail on what the the duration depended. But it doesn't. Not one iota.

I'm still not sure what it is you want. What is so hard to understand about God being all in all in the end?

It's not hard for me to understand all things will be in subjection to Him, and He will be the Undisputed Ruler. What's hard for me to grasp is the idea God being "all in all" unsays everything else about the lake.

 

[logos_x]

Wait... you said that.... "Death, sin, Hell...are destroyed.", remember?

I didn't say PEOPLE. I said all the works of the Devil are destroyed, including what holds people captive, sin, death and hell.

That was too esoteric for me. Want to put that into a more common idea?

In your view, punishment is just for punishment's sake..and lasts forever. In mine it isn't. It isn't esoteric.

Except for a few things you listed.

What?

I noticed you didn't bother addressing the idea throughout the Bible that it's the few who gain salvation, not "all". Nor did you address how men seem to look God in the face and reject Him.

The few are not the only ones saved ultimately..the fewness of salvation is in reference to various ages...it has been addressed before several times.

What of the lake which is not destroyed? Anyway, that verse doesn't say "bring all things into correction" it says "subjection". It seems somewhere the Bible would offer that idea. That the lake of fire is temporary and give some smidgen of detail on what the the duration depended. But it doesn't. Not one iota.

Then why insist it is eternal?

It's not hard for me to understand all things will be in subjection to Him, and He will be the Undisputed Ruler. What's hard for me to grasp is the idea God being "all in all" unsays everything else about the lake.

It doesn't "unsay" anything. It NEVER was discribed as "eternal" in the first place.

There is NO lake of fire in the new creation. There will be no more curse, and no more sin.
The Bible is quite plain regarding this...but somehow it is all lost on believers in eternal torment, presumably because an eternal state that cannot be revoked forever and ever carries much more weight than the scriptures that refute it.