BRXII Battle talk

[Delmar]

I have leaned toward universal salvation, I now say God will salvage what is salvageable.
I really to this day am not sure what hell is but I do believe some may not want to be with God.
What about annihaliation?
I do believe if anyone ends up in hell it is where they want to be.
I am still studing this.
Two steps forward and three steps back...blah blah blah. :dunce:

I'm not sure that anyone will want to be in Hell, exactly! I do, however, believe that many will find Hell more tolerable than humility, and less objectionable than being in the presence of a righteous God! I also wonder if liberal Christians will be able to tolerate being in the presence of a God, who is a God of love and a God of wrath!

 

[Stripe]

I'm not sure that anyone will want to be in Hell, exactly! I do, however, believe that many will find Hell more tolerable than humility, and less objectionable than being in the presence of a righteous God! I also wonder if liberal Christians will be able to tolerate being in the presence of a God, who is a God of love and a God of wrath!

There's a good point. Even if wveryone was given an option after they died, some would still not accept Jesus as Lord. Will God contend with them forever? I say not at all.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Is love all that God is? Yes God is love, but there are many other ways to describe God too. He is a jealous God for instance. He gets angry. He is a perfect, holy, and righteous God. He is a God who CANNOT allow sin into His presence.

So God has a multiple personality disorder? I think not. God is ONE. God's
jelousness, anger, holiness, righeiousness, all manifestations of LOVE. Our God is
ONE.

I see so the broad and narrow ways BOTH lead to the same destination? Do you deny the words of Jesus when He said many will seek to enter and will not be allowed in?
[/QUOTE[

Can you see the difference between entering willingly and being compelled? Yes, many
will seek the welcoming path through the sword of fire, but few will see it. In fact, most
will run from it in fear.

They will? Can you point to the Bible verse that clearly shows this? No. It is not there. There is not one Bible verse that shows anyone in the Lake of Fire getting out. Not one. You can again twist Scripture all you like, you will still be wrong.

Unstop your ears for a second and recognize that I'm agreeing with you. They don't get
out. They remain. Reconciled to God through Christ forever, which, by the way, IS
what the Bible says. I'm not twisting Scripture at all, I'm struggling to understand ALL
of it, not just the passages that support my comfortable understanding.

This is funny. Notice I didn't say anyone was worthy. None are worthy of the grace of God. I said anyone who repents is worth the sacrifice of God's Son to God. And this was in direct response to the idea that Universalism foists upon people that if all are not saved then Christ is somehow a failure.

This is always a mystery, how people who read and understand the "not by works"
doctrine insist that repentence is a prerequite. Ever repent? Ever witness someone
who truly repents? Its alot of work! Its hard to admit you've been living a life of sin
and turn it over to Christ! Another convenient inconsistancy desperately clung to
by people who have a comfort zone their not willing to "repent" from.

The restoration is God ridding the universe of sin. Sinners will still be judged in the Lake of Fire for all eternity. They are shut out from Heaven and glory. The Lake of Fire is a real place. You are a false teacher.

Again, unstop your ears. I'm in agreement. Once again, have you never experienced
something that's terrifying to some but joyful to others? Flying, peering over the
edge of a steep cliff, swimming, spelunking, traveling to foreign countries, sky diving,
scuba diving? The water, the air, the cave, the foreign country, all physically the
same, but experienced very differently by different people.

False teaching again. God declares in His Word what their destiny is. You are right it is up to Him and HE has pronounced their curse.

The only false teaching here is claiming to know the mind and heart of God in all things.

Actually the Bible teaches that Christians will have a place in judging the angels. Did you not know that? And God has already pronounced the judgment of the fallen angels. If you didn't deny the Bible you wouldn't have a problem with that.

Ha, I knew it would come to this. Go and judge angels, worthy one. I'll continue to
pray in humility for all peoples, friends and enemies, Christians and Non. Stay in
your comfort zone thinking paradise is a cozy little place for you and those that
agree with you. Continue to ignore and even ridicule scripture which doesn't fit your
cozy little Cosmos view with people who disagree with you toasting away in torment for
eternity. Keep God in your little box.

My God is an Awesome God, Speaking through but not contained within Scripture.
I continue to struggle to learn and grow in the Infinite, you have it all figured out. Good
for you, go judge your angels worthy one.

 

[Ecumenicist]

I'm not sure that anyone will want to be in Hell, exactly! I do, however, believe that many will find Hell more tolerable than humility, and less objectionable than being in the presence of a righteous God! I also wonder if liberal Christians will be able to tolerate being in the presence of a God, who is a God of love and a God of wrath!

If you were suffering with a toothache and afraid of the dentist, if you had good parents
they would drag you screaming and kicking to the dentist. In the end, your pain would
be relieved.

IF we know how to be good to our children, does not God know all the better? (Jesus'
words, not mine.)

 

[Ecumenicist]

If you were suffering with a toothache and afraid of the dentist, if you had good parents
they would drag you screaming and kicking to the dentist. In the end, your pain would
be relieved.

IF we know how to be good to our children, does not God know all the better? (Jesus'
words, not mine.)

PK, let me ask you this, if your children one day told you that they did not
believe in you, would you force them into a lake of fire and stand on a platform
above them basking in the smoke and screams of their torment?

Jesus says we can know something about the nature of God by our own experience
as parents. What kind of parent, what kind of Pastor are you?

Jesus said the sick are in need of the doctor, Jesus said healing and forgiveness are
the same thing, Paul said all things are reconciled to God through Christ.

Eternal Damnation is the only false teaching here.

 

[Stripe]

you're an idiot

 

[Ecumenicist]

You're a beloved child of God.

 

[Stripe]

You're an idiot.

 

[PKevman]

So God has a multiple personality disorder?

No but I think you might!

I think not. God is ONE. God's
jelousness, anger, holiness, righeiousness, all manifestations of LOVE. Our God is
ONE.

So when God judges is He showing His love to those being judged? Or is He showing He is a righteous and holy God? The Bible also shows that God HATES wickedness. And His hate of wickedness is just as strong as His love. Enter the death of His Son. God poured out His righteous anger on His own Son for the benefit of mankind. That was the ultimate display of His love. If a person rejects God's gift of love they have no hope, but instead face eternal judgment. That is what the Scriptures teach. Period.

I see so the broad and narrow ways BOTH lead to the same destination? Do you deny the words of Jesus when He said many will seek to enter and will not be allowed in?

Can you see the difference between entering willingly and being compelled? Yes, many
will seek the welcoming path through the sword of fire, but few will see it. In fact, most
will run from it in fear.

You danced around the question with a ridiculous answer. And in the process you introduced a doctrine which in fact has no support in the Bible. So now are you making up your own books? Has God made you a new prophet in this day and age and revealed some new truths to you? I run across a lot of people in the ministry who are deluded, but it is truly rare for me to meet one who is purposefully deluded or who seems to me to be a false teacher by choice. I think I have met such a one.

Unstop your ears for a second and recognize that I'm agreeing with you. They don't get
out. They remain. Reconciled to God through Christ forever, which, by the way, IS
what the Bible says.

You are most certainly not agreeing. They remain the Lake of Fire which is a place of torment forever and ever? That is not what you are saying. You are saying God is the Lake of Fire, which is NOT what the Bible says. Stop trying to patronize me in order to get me to accept hogwash. My ears are definitely stopped up to hogwash.

I'm not twisting Scripture at all,

Sure could have fooled me. Seems to me you are playing Bible Twister. Put your left hand on this verse and then stretttccchhhhhhhhh it way out of context and put your right hand on this verse and then strettcchhhhhhhh it way out of context. Until you have your own doctrines which come really from demons.

I'm struggling to understand ALL
of it, not just the passages that support my comfortable understanding.

No you are denying the portions that disagree with you. Such as when it says that unbelievers and Satan and the fallen angels are tormented in the Lake of Fire for all eternity. It is conscious, real, suffering a literal lake burning with fire. You try to claim along with the Universalists that the Lake of Fire is purifying. In fact you made a claim that ALL fire is purifying. Really? So why do we have firemen Dave Miller? Why are they needed to go in and save people's lives? Hey they're just being purified right? No if they don't rescue them from the flames they burn up. Only those in the Lake of Fire will never burn up because they are fitted with indestructible bodies suited for eternal damnation.

This is always a mystery, how people who read and understand the "not by works"
doctrine insist that repentence is a prerequite. Ever repent? Ever witness someone
who truly repents? Its alot of work! Its hard to admit you've been living a life of sin
and turn it over to Christ! Another convenient inconsistancy desperately clung to
by people who have a comfort zone their not willing to "repent" from.

True Biblical repentence doesn't occur in a vaccuum Dave Miller. A person who repents and accepts Christ into his heart is not in fact doing a work, but trusting in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. See you are twisting again.

The only false teaching here is claiming to know the mind and heart of God in all things.

Did I claim to know the mind and heart of God in all things? No you have just broken one of the commandments by bearing false witness. I said we can trust that God has revealed Himself to us through the Bible. God does not reveal Himself in a way that contradicts Scripture. The revelation from God is found in the Bible. We CAN know the mind of God when we study and learn the Word of God. But this is only revealed by the Spirit of God who resides within the child of God. It is that simple. But does that mean we know the mind and heart of God in ALL things? Hardly. There are many things that God will reveal to us who know Him and love Him on the glorious day He returns. There are many things we didn't know or understand fully that God will reveal to us. I cannot wait for that day.

Ha, I knew it would come to this. Go and judge angels, worthy one.

I never said I was worthy of anything. I just brought up a point to you that Christians will one day judge the angels. Again my question was do you not know that the Scriptures say this? If you say no I would be glad to show you the verse that says this. My guess is, judging from your response, you already HAVE heard and read that Scripture before. Otherwise a natural response would be something to the effect of: "Really, where does it say that?"

I'll continue to
pray in humility for all peoples, friends and enemies, Christians and Non.

Good you keep that up. But if you have not repented of your sins and trusted in Jesus Christ, a great gulf exists between you and God, so much so that the Bible says He will not hear you! Did you know the Bible says this Dave Miller?

Stay in your comfort zone thinking paradise is a cozy little place for you and those that
agree with you.

Agreeing with me is not a prerequisite for salvation Dave. Agreeing with God and accepting His plan of salvation IS! IF by "me and those who agree" with me, you mean those who have put on Christ and accepted God's provision for their sins (the sacrifice of the Son of God), then yes me and those who agree with me would be spending all eternity in Heaven. But it wouldn't be because they agreed with me. It would be because they agreed with God as He has revealed Himself in His Word.

Continue to ignore and even ridicule scripture which doesn't fit your
cozy little Cosmos view with people who disagree with you toasting away in torment for
eternity. Keep God in your little box.

By this statement you have revealed yourself to be a liar. I have never ridiculed Scripture. Never. Never. Never. I have ridiculed falste teachers who twist Scripture out of context. I have taken them BACK to the Scriptures and shown them what the verses mean IN CONTEXT and as it relates to the rest of the Bible. I have never ridiculed Scripture. You sir are a liar and are again bearing false witness. I am almost done responding to your lies.

 

[PKevman]

If you were suffering with a toothache and afraid of the dentist, if you had good parents
they would drag you screaming and kicking to the dentist. In the end, your pain would
be relieved.

IF we know how to be good to our children, does not God know all the better? (Jesus'
words, not mine.)

Is everyone in the world God's children Dave?

 

[PKevman]

Good morning Stipe! :up:

 

[Lighthouse]

I have leaned toward universal salvation, I now say God will salvage what is salvageable.
I really to this day am not sure what hell is but I do believe some may not want to be with God.
What about annihaliation?
I do believe if anyone ends up in hell it is where they want to be.
I am still studing this.
Two steps forward and three steps back...blah blah blah. :dunce:

Good for you, Evee.

 

[Lighthouse]

So maybe it isnt fire at all then? Do you seriously think death is a 'living ' being? How...........?!

It's called the Lake of Fire. Of course it's fire. And I said it was possible that death was a living entity, not that i believed it for certain. You really are a moron, if you can't pay attention to little details like that.

i understand that, I'd like you to explain why your view is more just than the pastor's and why you think presently that the pastor is wrong, surely you must have some conviction in your belief otherwise how can you tell others they know nothing about justice?

What do I supposedly think he's wrong about? Huh? What's more just? If that's the issue, then I'll repeat myself [since you don't seem to have gotten it]: I could be wrong. There. Is that clear enough for you?

Fair enough, I really need to get a hold of that anyway

Okay.

I would if they're face to face with the truth, I doubt in honesty it would actually be possible to want to reject unless insanity was an issue....and I'll leave it to God to set his restraints for 'allowing' people to accept....

I was thinking about this last night, and I finally realized what the answer is. They may admit He exists when faced with the truth of it, but that doesn't mean a thing. They won't be sorry about their rejection of Him. Not truly anyway. In other words, they will still be unrepentant. And they will not be willing to accept Christ, not in any real sense. They may say they will, just because they see that it's true, but it won't be for any other reason. Just like Satan and the angels who fell with him, they will believe, and tremble. But nothing more.

I dont recall Thomas being told to depart or anything....

Well, maybe you should read your Bible more closely. I told you where to find it. I accidentally quoted the NIV, because the website I used changed back to it, and I hadn't realized until after I submitted my post.

"Jesus said to him, [Jesus]'Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'[/Jesus]" [NKJV]

this is just ridiculous,please grow up.....and explain Rev 5:13 which got lost amidst this surreal rant......

What about it? Just because they cry out to Him doesn't mean they are saved. At that point it's too late.

 

[Stripe]

Good morning Stipe! :up:

Heh. Yes it is, but I should be heading to bed...

 

[Lighthouse]

Great point!

Saul certainly didnt have any free will in the matter of his conversion, hmmmm......

That is by and far the most retarded thing I have seen in any of your posts. Saul had no control over God getting His attention, no. But it was still up to Saul to decide which way to go. However, since Saul was already a follower of the Jewish religion, and therfore a believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, it was pretty easy for him to accept that Jesus was who He says He is. Especially since Saul was already convinced that it was the LORD Who was appearing to him. When Saul asked, "Who are you LORD," Jesus answered, "I am Jesus, Whom you persecute." And that was all it took. But there was no interference with Saul's free will.

 

[Ecumenicist]

No but I think you might!


So when God judges is He showing His love to those being judged? Or is He showing He is a righteous and holy God?

Absolutely. Your finally getting it . Praise God. God judges those whom God loves.
Job knew it. The Psalmist knew it. Now you know it.

The Bible also shows that God HATES wickedness. And His hate of wickedness is just as strong as His love.

Absolutely, and sin, wickedness is brokenness, affliction, disease, death. Just as we
hate cancer, God hates the wickedness that grows in humanity. Amen, you still
got it!

Enter the death of His Son. God poured out His righteous anger on His own Son for the benefit of mankind. That was the ultimate display of His love. If a person rejects God's gift of love they have no hope, but instead face eternal judgment. That is what the Scriptures teach. Period.

Amen to this too. No twisting here. You know your scripture, your eyes are just closed
to the loving fulfillment of Scripture provided through Jesus Christ.

Eternal judgement IS eternal love. Read Psalm 119:65:

65 Do good to your servant
according to your word, O LORD.
66 Teach me knowledge and good judgment,
for I believe in your commands.

67 Before I was afflicted I went astray,
but now I obey your word.

68 You are good, and what you do is good;
teach me your decrees.

69 Though the arrogant have smeared me with lies,
I keep your precepts with all my heart.

70 Their hearts are callous and unfeeling,
but I delight in your law.

71 It was good for me to be afflicted
so that I might learn your decrees.

72 The law from your mouth is more precious to me
than thousands of pieces of silver and gold.

You danced around the question with a ridiculous answer. And in the process you introduced a doctrine which in fact has no support in the Bible. So now are you making up your own books? Has God made you a new prophet in this day and age and revealed some new truths to you? I run across a lot of people in the ministry who are deluded, but it is truly rare for me to meet one who is purposefully deluded or who seems to me to be a false teacher by choice. I think I have met such a one.

Even "eye for an eye" becomes "do unto others as you would have them do unto
you" from a fulfilled, humble perspective. This is what Jesus came to say.

No twisting going on here, just obedience to God's promise fulfilled through Christ.

You are most certainly not agreeing. They remain the Lake of Fire which is a place of torment forever and ever? That is not what you are saying. You are saying God is the Lake of Fire, which is NOT what the Bible says. Stop trying to patronize me in order to get me to accept hogwash. My ears are definitely stopped up to hogwash.

Is paradise not guarded by an angel with a flaming sword?

Sure could have fooled me. Seems to me you are playing Bible Twister. Put your left hand on this verse and then stretttccchhhhhhhhh it way out of context and put your right hand on this verse and then strettcchhhhhhhh it way out of context.

:chuckle: That's a nice image. Thanx for brightening my day.

No you are denying the portions that disagree with you. Such as when it says that unbelievers and Satan and the fallen angels are tormented in the Lake of Fire for all eternity. It is conscious, real, suffering a literal lake burning with fire. You try to claim along with the Universalists that the Lake of Fire is purifying. In fact you made a claim that ALL fire is purifying. Really? So why do we have firemen Dave Miller? Why are they needed to go in and save people's lives? Hey they're just being purified right? No if they don't rescue them from the flames they burn up. Only those in the Lake of Fire will never burn up because they are fitted with indestructible bodies suited for eternal damnation.

You make a valid point here. If scripture says that those in the lake of fire are not
consumed, and our experience is that fires of this world consume, then there must
be something about the lake of fire that is foreign to our experience here. What could it
be?

Lets go to scripture and find out. What does Scripture say about fire?

It prevents humanity from entering into paradise of our own volition.

Its a guiding light for those who are astray.

It has a purifying, purging effect, and that which is passed through it is purified.

It is wrong for humanity to recognize this by passing our own children through it.

It does consume waste, chaff, tares, weeds, sinfulness.

And yet those who are cast in it are not consumed? How can we understand
this inconsistancy?

Perhaps that which is not consumed is the good within which God created. Remember,
God saw that which God created, and saw that it was GOOD.

True Biblical repentence doesn't occur in a vaccuum Dave Miller. A person who repents and accepts Christ into his heart is not in fact doing a work, but trusting in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. See you are twisting again.

Ever work with an addict? Repentence is hard work, trusting in God over and above
one's self is hard work. Christ is doing a work in this, otherwise it would not be
possible.

Did I claim to know the mind and heart of God in all things? No you have just broken one of the commandments by bearing false witness. I said we can trust that God has revealed Himself to us through the Bible. God does not reveal Himself in a way that contradicts Scripture. The revelation from God is found in the Bible. We CAN know the mind of God when we study and learn the Word of God. But this is only revealed by the Spirit of God who resides within the child of God. It is that simple. But does that mean we know the mind and heart of God in ALL things? Hardly. There are many things that God will reveal to us who know Him and love Him on the glorious day He returns. There are many things we didn't know or understand fully that God will reveal to us. I cannot wait for that day.

Me either. OK, we're in agreement in this as well.

I never said I was worthy of anything. I just brought up a point to you that Christians will one day judge the angels. Again my question was do you not know that the Scriptures say this? If you say no I would be glad to show you the verse that says this. My guess is, judging from your response, you already HAVE heard and read that Scripture before. Otherwise a natural response would be something to the effect of: "Really, where does it say that?"

Who is twisting and contextualizing now: Paul says that to chastise the Corinthians for
sueing each other:

1 Cor 6:5 I say this to shame you...

Good you keep that up. But if you have not repented of your sins and trusted in Jesus Christ, a great gulf exists between you and God, so much so that the Bible says He will not hear you! Did you know the Bible says this Dave Miller?

Fortunately, I have repented and given my life and heart to Christ. No gulf exists here,
God hears me, this is God's promise, for which I am greatful.

Agreeing with me is not a prerequisite for salvation Dave. Agreeing with God and accepting His plan of salvation IS! IF by "me and those who agree" with me, you mean those who have put on Christ and accepted God's provision for their sins (the sacrifice of the Son of God), then yes me and those who agree with me would be spending all eternity in Heaven. But it wouldn't be because they agreed with me. It would be because they agreed with God as He has revealed Himself in His Word.

I have no dispute with this. Those who accept Christ spend an eternity with Christ.
Those who do not are cast into God's Purifying fire, for the purpose of healing and
redemption. All things reconciled unto God. Why do you keep ignoring this
SCRIPTURAL FACT PK?

By this statement you have revealed yourself to be a liar. I have never ridiculed Scripture. Never. Never. Never. I have ridiculed false teachers who twist Scripture out of context.

2 Cor 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

The message Christ commits to us, Christ's followers, is the "message of reconcilliation!"
"Because God reconciled the World to Himself in Christ, not counting peoples' sins against." Preach reconcilliation through Christ PK, preach the truth.
them

I have taken them BACK to the Scriptures and shown them what the verses mean IN CONTEXT and as it relates to the rest of the Bible. I have never ridiculed Scripture. You sir are a liar and are again bearing false witness. I am almost done responding to your lies.

Just like that "judging angels" quote was in context. Nice.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Where'd that darned edit button go? Can't get the

qoute

sequence right
every time.

 

[Redfin]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dave Miller again."

:thumb:

 

[red77]

A typical conversation with Red:

Red: The Bible says all will be saved and that God wills all to be saved. Do you believe that God can accomplish His will?

Anyone: No Red those verses are being taken out of context (opens Bible and shows Red how those verses don't mean what Red says they mean)

Red: You haven't answered. I believe God will be all in all and that God desires all men to be saved. Do you honestly think that it is right that God would torture helpless people endlessly for all eternity with no real purpose other than to inflict pain on them?

Anyone: Red, God has given us His Word, the Bible, and He describes very clearly what happens to unbelievers who die in their sins without repenting and trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Red: You have not answered my question I believe God will be all in all and that God desires all men to be saved. Do you honestly think that it is right that God would torture helpless people endlessly for all eternity with no real purpose other than to inflict pain on them?

Anyone: Red I have answered your question, you just didn't like the answer. Universalism is false teaching.

Red: I believe God can accomplish His will, why don't you?

Anyone: Red I never said God couldn't accomplish His will. You have misunderstood what the Scriptures say. God wills that those who do not repent of their sins will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire, a real place of endless suffering. God states this explicitly in His Word. The Son of God, Jesus states it explicitly in His own words.

Red: Those translations are wrong. Your whole argument depends upon mistranslations of Aion. I believe God will be all in all and that God desires all men to be saved. Do you honestly think that it is right that God would torture helpless people endlessly for all eternity with no real purpose other than to inflict pain on them?

Red:I believe God will be all in all and that God desires all men to be saved. Do you honestly think that it is right that God would torture helpless people endlessly for all eternity with no real purpose other than to inflict pain on them?

Red:I believe God will be all in all and that God desires all men to be saved. Do you honestly think that it is right that God would torture helpless people endlessly for all eternity with no real purpose other than to inflict pain on them?

Red: You aren't answering the questions I am asking you...

It's because at this point the person is tired of repeating themselves and answering the same questions over and over and then hearing they aren't answering. Red with all due respect, you really should consider that your debating style is just not doing your theology very much justice.......

Pastor - with all due respect back to you attempting to belittle someone does no favours for your stance either, condescension seems par for the course around these parts and so does repetition - from ALL sides.....

 

[Lighthouse]

Pastor - with all due respect back to you attempting to belittle someone does no favours for your stance either, condescension seems par for the course around these parts and so does repetition - from ALL sides.....

If repetition bothers you, why do you keep doing it?