BRXII Battle talk

[red77]

What? Now I have to justify why I post -- to you? :darwinsm:

Of course not, i'm just not sure why you debate on this particular thread when you're admittedly unsure where you stand in the issue of eternal torment, in your first post you said that Knight's response to my own post was 'clear' which led me to believe that you must have been an advocate of ET, then it transpires that you aren't sure after 'clear' meant the destruction of evil which all sides of the fence believe anyway......

It may be obvious to you and you started with a big "IF." What leads to your conclusion, since there is nothing in Scripture to suggest it.

How can it not be obvious? If scriptures say that evil and sin are vanquished for ever then there can hardly be a realm in which both are still existing in some form, it's just basic logic....

Only to you and the other Universalists.

then refute my logic if it's so easy, why is the word 'especially' in the verse at all if God is not in fact the saviour of all men? Is that word not there for a reason?

Sure would. I'll be happy to debate the issue when I have firm Scriptural ground to walk on. Universalism is a losing issue. So, the disagreement is whether ET or Annihilation.

Until you have this firm enough scriptural ground to walk on who are you to say that universalism is a losing issue? There's more support for God restoring all he creates than even merely destroying it aka annihilation, I'll admit that annihaltion makes a load more sense than ET for various reasons such as totally destroying evil but who is to say that God cannot atually reconcile everything to himself in the end? He did actually come to save the world after all and I'm not going to say he can't do it....

 

[PKevman]

So, the disagreement is whether ET or Annihilation.

I would disagree with this Frank E. I agree with you that Universalism is false, but I believe the same verses that destroy Universalism also destroy Annihilationism as well. I think this is the perfect thread to discuss Annihilationism, as I had been hoping we would discuss it more in the Battle Royale. The BR got a little sidetracked and went more towards the Universalist aspect simply because Logos is a Universalist.

Man was created in God's image and is an eternal soul that will live somewhere. Could God wipe us out entirely if He so chose? Absolutely He COULD. But we really don't see this happening. Instead we see the wicked being tormented "day and night forever and ever". That language is so clear.

Thanks for your contribution on this thread, and please feel free to discuss further any subject you like. Red77 and the other Universalists never want to hear from someone who destroys their pet theology.

 

[PKevman]

then refute my logic if it's so easy, why is the word 'especially' in the verse at all if God is not in fact the saviour of all men? Is that word not there for a reason?

I have already several times over expounded on that passage for you Red. God is the Savior of all men GENERALLY in that Christ died for all men. He is "Especially" the Savior of believers because they have TRUSTED in His sacrifice. IF a person has not trusted in His sacrifice they are without hope, just as Jesus said!


ESPECIALLY

Is a translation of the Greek word "Malista" which means literally: "Most of all" or "above all". It is also the superlative of "very much".

To get a better understanding of this word and what it means in the context of THIS verse, let's look at some other verses it is used in and then come back to the verse you continually bring up as a "proof-text" for Universalism.

Galatians 6:9-10

9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially ("Malista")to those who are of the household of faith.

Here Paul is saying that we should do good to all GENERALLY SPEAKING, but that we should ESPECIALLY do good to those who are of the household of faith. This is addressed to Christians and is speaking of the way we should treat fellow believers in Christ. It is to be ABOVE even that treatment that we render to unbelievers!

In 2 Timothy 5:16-17, Paul instructs that those who labor in the Word should be treated with "double honor"! He uses the word "Malista" to define that EXTRA honor that should be given to those who teach God's Word (Pastors and elders in the context).

1 Timothy 5:8

8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

This speaks of the need to provide for your own household ESPECIALLY(Malista) The KJV renders the word "specially" in this text.
So the word clearly is used to mean "Above all" or "Most of all", such as when Paul says (In 2 Timothy 4:13):

13 Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come—and the books, especially the parchments.

He especially wanted the parchments above all else!

Now let's examine your text in detail and again LAY TO WASTE Universalism with the clear light of truth!

In 1 Timothy 4:1-4, Paul warns Timothy to be on guard against deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. He calls them lying hypocrites because they command people to eat only certain types of foods, when God has clearly given man the green light to eat any creature.

Then In verse 5 Paul says it is "sanctified by the word of God and prayer." Which expounds on the fact that everything we eat is good if we receive it in thanksgiving and prayer.

In verse #6, Paul tells Timothy:

If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

In verses #7-8 he teaches him that bodily exercise is important, but exercising yourself towards Godliness is FAR more profitable:

7 But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

Verse 9
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance.

What is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance? "godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come" (verse 8)

Now watch this:

Verse #10:

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Let's break it down and examine it:

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach:

To what end? Exercising towards Godliness of course! Becoming MORE Godly should be the goal of all Christians!

because we trust in the living God

What does that have to do with anything? EVERYTHING! Knowing that we as Christians trust in the living God should encourage us to EXERCISE ourselves towards Godliness which is profitable for all things!

who is the Savior of all men

God IS the Savior of all men! Christ died, and His sacrifice covers all of mankind! Scripture gives us very clear evidence of what it takes to receive the blessings that God offers to all men:

Romans 10:9-13

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved

IF you confess and believe, YOU WILL be saved! Are you saved before you confess and believe? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

That's why Jesus said in John 3:18

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

AND THAT IS WHY it says in the verse above:

God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe

Especially of those who believe

CLEARLY indicates that while God is the Savior of all men potentially, He is ESPECIALLY (Moreso, above all, Most of all) the Savior of those who believe!

PK questions from this text for Universalists to struggle with and trip over themselves TRYING to answer:

How can Universalism POSSIBLY HAVE the correct view of this verse? Do you say that God's salvation towards those who believe is better than His salvation towards those who DON'T believe?

Are there two salvations?

End the end to answer your question Red, the word is DEFINITELY there for a reason: and it exposes the lie of Universalism UTTERLY!

 

[Redfin]

I have already several times over expounded on that passage for you Red. God is the Savior of all men GENERALLY in that Christ died for all men. He is "Especially" the Savior of believers because they have TRUSTED in His sacrifice. IF a person has not trusted in His sacrifice they are without hope, just as Jesus said!

True, until they ultimately trust in it. Christian Universalism has no problem with your reasoning so far.

ESPECIALLY

Is a translation of the Greek word "Malista" which means literally: "Most of all" or "above all". It is also the superlative of "very much".

To get a better understanding of this word and what it means in the context of THIS verse, let's look at some other verses it is used in and then come back to the verse you continually bring up as a "proof-text" for Universalism.

Galatians 6:9-10

9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially ("Malista")to those who are of the household of faith.

Here Paul is saying that we should do good to all GENERALLY SPEAKING, but that we should ESPECIALLY do good to those who are of the household of faith. This is addressed to Christians and is speaking of the way we should treat fellow believers in Christ. It is to be ABOVE even that treatment that we render to unbelievers!

But by your logic the wording would rule out doing good to the unbelievers!

In 2 Timothy 5:16-17, Paul instructs that those who labor in the Word should be treated with "double honor"! He uses the word "Malista" to define that EXTRA honor that should be given to those who teach God's Word (Pastors and elders in the context).

But by your reasoning "normal" honor would be due to no one!

1 Timothy 5:8

8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

This speaks of the need to provide for your own household ESPECIALLY(Malista) The KJV renders the word "specially" in this text.
So the word clearly is used to mean "Above all" or "Most of all", such as when Paul says (In 2 Timothy 4:13):

13 Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come—and the books, especially the parchments.

He especially wanted the parchments above all else!

But your reasoning would have them forget about the cloak!

Now let's examine your text in detail and again LAY TO WASTE Universalism with the clear light of truth!

In 1 Timothy 4:1-4, Paul warns Timothy to be on guard against deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. He calls them lying hypocrites because they command people to eat only certain types of foods, when God has clearly given man the green light to eat any creature.

Then In verse 5 Paul says it is "sanctified by the word of God and prayer." Which expounds on the fact that everything we eat is good if we receive it in thanksgiving and prayer.

In verse #6, Paul tells Timothy:

If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

In verses #7-8 he teaches him that bodily exercise is important, but exercising yourself towards Godliness is FAR more profitable:

7 But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

Verse 9
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance.

What is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance? "godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come" (verse 8)

Now watch this:

Verse #10:

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Let's break it down and examine it:

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach:

To what end? Exercising towards Godliness of course! Becoming MORE Godly should be the goal of all Christians!

because we trust in the living God

What does that have to do with anything? EVERYTHING! Knowing that we as Christians trust in the living God should encourage us to EXERCISE ourselves towards Godliness which is profitable for all things!

who is the Savior of all men

God IS the Savior of all men! Christ died, and His sacrifice covers all of mankind! Scripture gives us very clear evidence of what it takes to receive the blessings that God offers to all men:

Romans 10:9-13

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved

IF you confess and believe, YOU WILL be saved! Are you saved before you confess and believe? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

That's why Jesus said in John 3:18

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

AND THAT IS WHY it says in the verse above:

God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe

Especially of those who believe

CLEARLY indicates that while God is the Savior of all men potentially, He is ESPECIALLY (Moreso, above all, Most of all) the Savior of those who believe!

Interesting exegesis.

"Potentially?" Really? Where did that word get snuck in? It's certainly not in the text.

"God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

Stop twisting scriptures, Kev. You will be held accountable, you know.

PK questions from this text for Universalists to struggle with and trip over themselves TRYING to answer:

How can Universalism POSSIBLY HAVE the correct view of this verse? Do you say that God's salvation towards those who believe is better than His salvation towards those who DON'T believe?

Are there two salvations?

No more than there was a cloak AND a parchment that Paul wanted brought...

End the end to answer your question Red, the word is DEFINITELY there for a reason: and it exposes the lie of Universalism UTTERLY!

Not by a long shot... :think:

 

[Nineveh]

So, when you are in heaven and you know that, elsewhere, countless souls are in unimaginable and interminable torment, you will not feel miserable about that?

"And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes..." Balder, I can only offer you the Truth, but as with everyone else, you have the freewill to accept or reject. No, I don't like the idea folks reject God, but it's not up to me to force folks to do one thing or another, nor will I lie to you or anyone else so your trip to hell feels a bit more comfy.

 

[PKevman]

In other words Redfin has no definitive answers to the two questions I posed in the answer to Red's question. Redfin-just insisting that I am wrong is not an answer or a refutation of the post. Your non-answer proves you know well that you have no answers!

 

[PKevman]

Stop twisting scriptures, Kev. You will be held accountable, you know

There was no twisting done. You interpret Scripture with Scripture Redfin. Jesus said those who do not believe in Him are condemned ALREADY. By default they are condemned NOT saved Redfin. This clearly explains the verse in question beyond a shadow of a doubt!

 

[Redfin]

In other words Redfin has no definitive answers to the two questions I posed in the answer to Red's question. Redfin-just insisting that I am wrong is not an answer or a refutation of the post. Your non-answer proves you know well that you have no answers!

Wrong.

I simply take the time to consider my answers, so as not to have to resort to tactics such as inserting terms like "potentially" into sacred texts, as you seem to find necessary.

By the way, I see three questions.

Kev’s 3 Questions

How can Universalism POSSIBLY HAVE the correct view of this verse?

By interpreting the Scriptures correctly.

Do you say that God's salvation towards those who believe is better than His salvation towards those who DON'T believe?

Yes, because those who believe are enjoying its benefits now, while the unbeliever’s enjoyment is deferred until they become believers.

Are there two salvations?

Yes, presently realized salvation, and presently unrealized salvation (from the individual's point-of-view).

Obviously the former is "especially" fulfilling.

There, asked and answered, without struggle.

 

[PKevman]

Wrong.

I simply take the time to consider my answers, so as not to have to resort to tactics such as inserting terms like "potentially" into sacred texts, as you seem to find necessary.

I didn't insert anything into the text. How about you deal with truth instead of made up lies?

How can Universalism POSSIBLY HAVE the correct view of this verse?

By interpreting the Scriptures correctly.

Then why do you interpret it wrongly in order to FORCE it to say something that disagrees with other CLEAR passages in Scripture? If this is your smoking gun, I am sorry but you need to buy some new smoke!

My next question was:

Do you say that God's salvation towards those who believe is better than His salvation towards those who DON'T believe?

Yes, because those who believe are enjoying its benefits now, while the unbeliever’s enjoyment is deferred until they become believers.

That COULD be one POSSIBLE interpretation IF it were discussing the benefits of being a believer in this life! Nowhere does this text or any text in the Scripture give hope to people AFTER they die! You have built your house out of straw Redfin. God is the Savior of all men because Christ died for all men. He is the Savior especially of believers because they are the only ones who actually receive the gift of salvation by the grace of God through faith (Eph 2:8-9)!

Notice how you completely dodged the qustion too. I said are you saying God's salvation towards those who believe is better than His salvation towards those who DON'T believe? In your view there is no room for someone to be an unbeliever because you claim that everyone EVENTUALLY becomes a believer DESPITE the fact that Scripture makes it abundantly clear this just IS NOT SO!

Are there two salvations?

Yes, presently realized salvation, and presently unrealized salvation (from the individual's point-of-view).

This is so wrong, I am not even sure how you are ever going to see your way around it. There are not two salvations Redfin. There is one. A person is either saved or unsaved. There is no "Presently unrealized salvation from the individual's point of view". Where do you find THAT in Scripture? Oh that's right: NOWHERE! Right up there with all of those verses that show that someone cast into the Lake of Fire get out of it!

Obviously the former is "especially" fulfilling.

Where in the context of this text do you find anything about FULFILLMENT? Paul is giving instructions on exercise towards Godliness. You are making up your own definitions for words and in fact you yourself are twisting Scripture. My question is how far does it go? Are you just twisting the Bible intentionally, or does it go back to your Universalist teachers?

There, asked and answered, without struggle.

Too bad the answers are not sufficient!

 

[Redfin]

I didn't insert anything into the text. How about you deal with truth instead of made up lies?

"...God is the Savior of all men potentially, He is ESPECIALLY (Moreso, above all, Most of all) the Savior of those who believe!"

Busted! :think:

Nowhere does this text or any text in the Scripture give hope to people AFTER they die!

Nowhere does this or any other text take away hope from people after they die (unless you choose to misinterpret aionos, of course).

God is the Savior of all men because Christ died for all men. He is the Savior especially of believers because they are the only ones who actually receive the gift of salvation by the grace of God through faith (Eph 2:8-9)!

We are still in total agreement on that, Kev. You can quit beating that dead straw-horse now.

Notice how you completely dodged the qustion too. I said are you saying God's salvation towards those who believe is better than His salvation towards those who DON'T believe? In your view there is no room for someone to be an unbeliever because you claim that everyone EVENTUALLY becomes a believer DESPITE the fact that Scripture makes it abundantly clear this just IS NOT SO!

To say that everyone eventually becomes a believer absolutely makes room for someone to be an unbeliever, even indefinitely.

Straw-man!

And if Scripture makes your claim so abundantly clear, this thread would never have gone on this long.

This is so wrong, I am not even sure how you are ever going to see your way around it. There are not two salvations Redfin. There is one. A person is either saved or unsaved. There is no "Presently unrealized salvation from the individual's point of view". Where do you find THAT in Scripture?[/B]

I was just going along with your twisted terminology to make a point.

God being the savior of all men (unbelievers and "especially" believers) doesn't necessitate Him being two Gods.

Neither does it necessitate two salvations, as you disingenuously imply it must, under the Christian Universalist view.

Straw-man!

Too bad the answers are not sufficient!

In your present state of dogmatism, Kev, no answers would be sufficient for you.

 

[Redfin]

I've certainly made an effort to deal with all your questions and points, Kev.

Can you finally address a few of mine? :think:

But by your logic the wording would rule out doing good to the unbelievers!

But by your reasoning "normal" honor would be due to no one!

But your reasoning would have them forget about the cloak!

"Potentially?" Really? Where did that word get snuck in? It's certainly not in the text.

"God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

 

[Frank Ernest]

Of course not, i'm just not sure why you debate on this particular thread when you're admittedly unsure where you stand in the issue of eternal torment, in your first post you said that Knight's response to my own post was 'clear' which led me to believe that you must have been an advocate of ET, then it transpires that you aren't sure after 'clear' meant the destruction of evil which all sides of the fence believe anyway......

Knight's response was clear. Understanding does not include agreement necessarily. The Bible is clear also. There will be a Final Judgment. It will last for eternity. So the issue is what does this punishment encompass, not whether there will be a punishment or not.

How can it not be obvious? If scriptures say that evil and sin are vanquished for ever then there can hardly be a realm in which both are still existing in some form, it's just basic logic....

This "realm" you constantly referring to is an assumption on your part. The Scriptures do not speak of it.

then refute my logic if it's so easy, why is the word 'especially' in the verse at all if God is not in fact the saviour of all men? Is that word not there for a reason?

Already refuted by Scripture itself. I like all apples, especially the red ones.

Until you have this firm enough scriptural ground to walk on who are you to say that universalism is a losing issue? There's more support for God restoring all he creates than even merely destroying it aka annihilation, I'll admit that annihaltion makes a load more sense than ET for various reasons such as totally destroying evil but who is to say that God cannot atually reconcile everything to himself in the end? He did actually come to save the world after all and I'm not going to say he can't do it....

God has told us what will happen to believers. He has told us what will happen to unbelievers and unrepentant sinners. Universalists seem to think He's kidding. What firm Scriptural ground does that rest on? God has stated His intentions over many centuries, many times and in many places through many people (prophets). The message is clear and consistent. What Universalism has come up with is nothing more than an eternal conflict between Good and Evil that magically resolves itself at some vague future point. God has said there will be an end to THIS world as we know it and He will establish His world where there will be no evil. God did not say what He intends to do beyond that we will suffer no more evil. As to what plans He has for the rest of the universe, God through Scripture does not say.

You can fiddle with it all you want to justify anything you want. We do have lots of folks trying it. If you wish to believe in some isolated pocket of warehoused evil in some remote nebula or far-off galaxy, go ahead. I do not see where it has any relevance.

 

[red77]

Knight's response was clear. Understanding does not include agreement necessarily. The Bible is clear also. There will be a Final Judgment. It will last for eternity. So the issue is what does this punishment encompass, not whether there will be a punishment or not.

knight's response was that it was 'clear' that the scriptures speak of the eternal torment of unbelievers if i'm not mistaken, you do not necassarily believe this to be the case currently so when you were saying that it was 'clear' you were referring to the eradication of evil - which all sides of the fence believe - correct?

This "realm" you constantly referring to is an assumption on your part. The Scriptures do not speak of it.

What? How can there not be some sort of 'realm' if billions of people are existing somewhere being constantly tormented? How can it be an 'assumption' to say that evil and sin aren't eradicated when they are still existing in some area or realm/ dimension or whatever somewhere..... :liberals:

Already refuted by Scripture itself. I like all apples, especially the red ones.

That really is a total non answer Frank, how can a verse be refuted by another verse? Again - why does this verse say 'especially' if it fundamentally becomes 'only'? no twisting of words of definitions can get around that, please explain in detail......

God has told us what will happen to believers. He has told us what will happen to unbelievers and unrepentant sinners. Universalists seem to think He's kidding. What firm Scriptural ground does that rest on? God has stated His intentions over many centuries, many times and in many places through many people (prophets). The message is clear and consistent. What Universalism has come up with is nothing more than an eternal conflict between Good and Evil that magically resolves itself at some vague future point. God has said there will be an end to THIS world as we know it and He will establish His world where there will be no evil. God did not say what He intends to do beyond that we will suffer no more evil. As to what plans He has for the rest of the universe, God through Scripture does not say.

You can fiddle with it all you want to justify anything you want. We do have lots of folks trying it. If you wish to believe in some isolated pocket of warehoused evil in some remote nebula or far-off galaxy, go ahead. I do not see where it has any relevance.

You are still unsure as to whether 'sinners' are annihalated or despatched to eternal suffering, if God has told you what is going to happen with such clarity then how come you don't know?! If it somehow isn't blatanlty obvious that for 'sinners' to still exist then so does sin and evil then what is the point of trying to use logic in this debate?

i don't need to 'fiddle', God's will as it's written is to have all men come to a knowledge of the truth, why should i believe that God can't restore and reconcile all that he creates, why would I want to place such restrictions on the creator of the universe in what he can and cannot salvage? Because the doctrines of men say that he can't.....? No thanks.....

 

[red77]

I have already several times over expounded on that passage for you Red. God is the Savior of all men GENERALLY in that Christ died for all men. He is "Especially" the Savior of believers because they have TRUSTED in His sacrifice. IF a person has not trusted in His sacrifice they are without hope, just as Jesus said!


ESPECIALLY

Is a translation of the Greek word "Malista" which means literally: "Most of all" or "above all". It is also the superlative of "very much".

To get a better understanding of this word and what it means in the context of THIS verse, let's look at some other verses it is used in and then come back to the verse you continually bring up as a "proof-text" for Universalism.

Galatians 6:9-10

9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially ("Malista")to those who are of the household of faith.

Here Paul is saying that we should do good to all GENERALLY SPEAKING, but that we should ESPECIALLY do good to those who are of the household of faith. This is addressed to Christians and is speaking of the way we should treat fellow believers in Christ. It is to be ABOVE even that treatment that we render to unbelievers!

In 2 Timothy 5:16-17, Paul instructs that those who labor in the Word should be treated with "double honor"! He uses the word "Malista" to define that EXTRA honor that should be given to those who teach God's Word (Pastors and elders in the context).

1 Timothy 5:8

8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

This speaks of the need to provide for your own household ESPECIALLY(Malista) The KJV renders the word "specially" in this text.
So the word clearly is used to mean "Above all" or "Most of all", such as when Paul says (In 2 Timothy 4:13):

13 Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come—and the books, especially the parchments.

He especially wanted the parchments above all else!

Now let's examine your text in detail and again LAY TO WASTE Universalism with the clear light of truth!

In 1 Timothy 4:1-4, Paul warns Timothy to be on guard against deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. He calls them lying hypocrites because they command people to eat only certain types of foods, when God has clearly given man the green light to eat any creature.

Then In verse 5 Paul says it is "sanctified by the word of God and prayer." Which expounds on the fact that everything we eat is good if we receive it in thanksgiving and prayer.

In verse #6, Paul tells Timothy:

If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

In verses #7-8 he teaches him that bodily exercise is important, but exercising yourself towards Godliness is FAR more profitable:

7 But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

Verse 9
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance.

What is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance? "godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come" (verse 8)

Now watch this:

Verse #10:

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Let's break it down and examine it:

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach:

To what end? Exercising towards Godliness of course! Becoming MORE Godly should be the goal of all Christians!

because we trust in the living God

What does that have to do with anything? EVERYTHING! Knowing that we as Christians trust in the living God should encourage us to EXERCISE ourselves towards Godliness which is profitable for all things!

who is the Savior of all men

God IS the Savior of all men! Christ died, and His sacrifice covers all of mankind! Scripture gives us very clear evidence of what it takes to receive the blessings that God offers to all men:

Romans 10:9-13

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved

IF you confess and believe, YOU WILL be saved! Are you saved before you confess and believe? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

That's why Jesus said in John 3:18

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

AND THAT IS WHY it says in the verse above:

God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe

Especially of those who believe

CLEARLY indicates that while God is the Savior of all men potentially, He is ESPECIALLY (Moreso, above all, Most of all) the Savior of those who believe!

PK questions from this text for Universalists to struggle with and trip over themselves TRYING to answer:

How can Universalism POSSIBLY HAVE the correct view of this verse? Do you say that God's salvation towards those who believe is better than His salvation towards those who DON'T believe?

Are there two salvations?

End the end to answer your question Red, the word is DEFINITELY there for a reason: and it exposes the lie of Universalism UTTERLY!

Pastor, Redfin has already beaten me to it but you have put your own spin on this verse by adding 'potentially'!!

your breakdown of the word 'especially' and it's definition has done nothing more than to say exactly what the word defines, I am not in any disagreement with your assesment of the word or it's definition! i think we all already know what especially means.....

How on earth you think that this verse itself can destroy the idea that God can restore his own creation is utterly dumbfounding... if God is the saviour of all men, especially of those that believe then it's pretty easy to explain isn't it? Those that believe already have hope and faith to help them in their lives, those that don't do not.......

By your token the verse should really read 'God is the saviour of only those that believe'

except it doesn't - and no amount of word twisting, re-defining can make the verse say anything other than what it does, if God is the saviour of all men, especially of those who believe then he is just that - the saviour of ALL men - not just the "potential" saviour as you may seem to feel,

one day everyone will confess, every knee will bow, again - unless you feel that is a forced confession before millions upon billions are carted off to some hideous place of pointless suffering then it will happen,

The verse does not say 'God is only the saviour of those who believe' no matter how much you may try to twist it to mean otherwise.....

 

[red77]

There was no twisting done. You interpret Scripture with Scripture Redfin. Jesus said those who do not believe in Him are condemned ALREADY. By default they are condemned NOT saved Redfin. This clearly explains the verse in question beyond a shadow of a doubt!

Oh come off it, it doesn't say 'condemned to an eternity of suffering' in that verse which is purely a leap of interpretation to begin with......
however - you cannot interpret 'especially' to mean anything other than what it defines, any attempt to do so with ET results in it meaning 'only' which serves only to completely twist the clear definition of the word into something else entirely......

 

[PKevman]

By your token the verse should really read 'God is the saviour of only those that believe'

Wrong again. In your confusion you and Redfin have found fellowship around the lies you have been taught. I never said that the verse SHOULD read God is the Savior of ONLY those that believe. The verse is translated pretty well how it should be translated within the context, (which you so readily ignore). I explained this already and you are just being dense. Jesus is the Savior of all in that He died for all! The Scriptures in other places clearly show HOW one receives the free gift of salvation. YOU and REDFIN and other "Christian" Universalists are adding things to this verse that are not there when you attempt to assert that it proves Universal Salvation!

False teachers!

 

[PKevman]

Oh come off it, it doesn't say 'condemned to an eternity of suffering' in that verse which is purely a leap of interpretation to begin with......
however - you cannot interpret 'especially' to mean anything other than what it defines, any attempt to do so with ET results in it meaning 'only' which serves only to completely twist the clear definition of the word into something else entirely......

The fact that especially is there once again clearly upholds all of the rest of Scripture which contains the clause that one must be a believer to be saved. IF your doctrine were true, then the whole "Especially of believers" is pointless and redundant. God is ESPECIALLY the Savior of believers because they have trusted in His free gift of salvation. Your problem is that you deny other clear passages of Scripture such as Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 10:9-13 in order to CLING to a false view of a misquoted verse out of context. Sad.

 

[PKevman]

I've certainly made an effort to deal with all your questions and points, Kev.

Can you finally address a few of mine? :think:

I already answered those points in the previous post Redfin. And you never clearly answered my questions. How funny. So you say I didn't answer what I have answered and at the same time say you have answered things that you didn't answer. Universalism has twisted you up so much you cannot see the light of day my friend.

 

[red77]

Wrong again. In your confusion you and Redfin have found fellowship around the lies you have been taught. I never said that the verse SHOULD read God is the Savior of ONLY those that believe. The verse is translated pretty well how it should be translated within the context, (which you so readily ignore). I explained this already and you are just being dense. Jesus is the Savior of all in that He died for all! The Scriptures in other places clearly show HOW one receives the free gift of salvation. YOU and REDFIN and other "Christian" Universalists are adding things to this verse that are not there when you attempt to assert that it proves Universal Salvation!

False teachers!

There IS no confusion! The only confusion that arises is when people desperately try to cling onto hideous doctrines by warping the clear definitions of words! YOU have been the one to add context to a verse by saying that God is only 'potentially' the saviour of all men which the verse clearly doesn't say, you say that you have never said that the verse SHOULD say that God is only the saviour of those that believe and yet ultimately that is what you would have the verse to mean!!!!! No-one is adding anything to this verse, why would we? There's no need..........

 

[PKevman]

Busted! :think:

Wrong again. I never said that my explanation of the verse was Scripture Redfin. You took my own statement out of context of what I was saying overall. I don't take much offense to it since you take God's words out of context on a routine basis!

Nowhere does this or any other text take away hope from people after they die (unless you choose to misinterpret aionos, of course).

You would like to hinge your arguments on a wrongly translated word by Universalists of course. But that has already been defeated many times over and is not even worth going back down that road. If you want the answers to that, you can read the Battle Royale. But you aren't after answers, only to dogmatically defend your false doctrine.

In any case, the Scriptures teach us that it is appointed to men once to die and after this "The Judgment". This makes it very plain indeed that there are no more "chances" once someone leaves this life behind. Universalists give false hope to people!

We are still in total agreement on that, Kev. You can quit beating that dead straw-horse now.

No we are not in agreement in the least I don't think. You twist definitions to make them mean what you want them to mean, but that doesn't make us in agreement. You folks repeatedly say things that show we are not in agreement on the subject. Nice try.

To say that everyone eventually becomes a believer absolutely makes room for someone to be an unbeliever, even indefinitely.

To say that everyone eventually becomes a believer is NOT BIBLE! So that basic premise is false!

And if Scripture makes your claim so abundantly clear, this thread would never have gone on this long.

You can lead a horse to water.............

I was just going along with your twisted terminology to make a point.

Biblical terminology is twisted? Ok then. Your denial of God's Word is now evident!

God being the savior of all men (unbelievers and "especially" believers) doesn't necessitate Him being two Gods.

I never said anything about Him being two Gods. Talk about your straw man argument. :HA:

Neither does it necessitate two salvations, as you disingenuously imply it must, under the Christian Universalist view.

Sure it does. You assert that this verse means the salvation of all, but cannot explain how that exactly fits within the constructs of your Universal Salvation view. The only way I can see it making any sense is that you believe there are two different salvations, and that salvation for unbelievers is a different salvation entirely. The best way to understand the text is to abandon your false Universal Salvation views. Then the text will open up to you!

In your present state of dogmatism, Kev, no answers would be sufficient for you.

Wrong again. Any time I hold to views that are unBiblical and someone shows me from the Bible that they are wrong, I have abandoned them to be submissive to God's Word. You don't know me, so you don't know what the heck you are talking about Redfin. If you did you would know that within the past 6 years of my life I have abandoned a lot of views I once held and embraced an open dispensational view of God and the Bible!