logos_x said:
No..you rely solely upon the English translations that say the the aions are endless.
Good grief you just continue on and on with this error even after it has been exposed. If you only listen to one side of things, then you will only hear that side: i.e. the side of the Universalists.
Again there are tons of REPUTABLE Greek scholars who completely disagree with your views. You have EVEN ADMITTED that those who hold your position are in the
vast minority among Greek scholars. You attribute it to years of brainwashing on eternal judgment, instead of just that they know the Greek far better than the fools at Tentmaker who have shaken their fist at God and decided what THEY want the Bible to say!
You say the onus of proof is on me
It is because you are denying the clear words of Scripture and attempting to say they don't actually say what they say! And in order to believe that you must take only the translations that are friendly to Universalist doctrine, even when they are shown to be in error by serious Greek scholars!
and then reject whatever proof I offer, and reject the sources
That's right, I believe the Bible and God over ANY person or group of people, Stephen.
...even the comentaries of the scholars that agree with what I've said about the words used in the Hebrew and Greek texts.
I am sure they would be unable to defend those positions in a debate with a solid Greek scholar!
So...Kevin, what would you have me do? Throw up my hands and give up the argument? Quit in disgust?
No, re-examine your position and see if it be truly Scriptural. Shut yourself off from these people who have misled you and look at some different sources that refute your Universalist theology. Then see if your doctrine can stand.
Agree to sit down with me for lunch (since we live close), and let's talk about this in person.
Why is the onus of proof on me?
Because your positions aren't Biblical buddy. I'm sorry but they just aren't.
Why is it that the onus of proof isn't on you?
Because I have done my part and shown the Scriptural side of my argument. I have answered every single question you gave in the BR, and asked tons that you never answered and still haven't really answered SCRIPTURALLY because Universalism cannot at its core be defended from the Bible!
How is it that everything I've said is invalid?
Strawman.
I never said EVERYTHING you have said is invalid. Just the things that have been heavily affected by Universalism!
WHY are you right about "what the Bible DIRECTLY says" no matter what,
It is always possible for ME a human being, to be wrong! It is not possible for God's Word to be wrong. This isn't about ME. It's about God and His Word!
while you are at variance with many scriptures...
I have repeatedly said if I believe something that is at variance with Scripture that I would abandon that. The problem you have is in trying to make it out as if I am dishonest intellectually and ignoring things being shown to me purposefully, when I would never do that.
If you had shown me the Scriptural answers that I asked for, I would certainly be able to consider your arguments a little more! But you didn't do that, because there are no answers to be found in the Bible to questions such as
how do fallen angels get their sins payed for in your belief? You have to make up answers and guess, and theorize as to how Satan and the fallen angels are saved.
You have to add to the Bible to claim that anyone in the Lake of Fire gets out, because that isn't shown ANYWHERE!
Here's a question for you that you still haven't answered: IF your belief system is right, why does the Bible CLEARLY show them being thrown in the Lake of Fire, and NOWHERE does it CLEARLY show them being allowed OUT?
which I continue to point out...and explain THOSE away according to your doctrine?
I believe the Bible, not "doctrines" that are made up!
Where have I attacked the credibility of the scriptures, Kevin?
All the time Stephen. All the time.
But you don't see it because this belief system has blinded you my friend.
All I've done is point out what the words in those scriptures are in the original language they were written in. I am in disagreement with the way SOME Bibles have translated those texts.
Only because of things you have read from people who hold those positions. You have admitted that you aren't a Greek scholar yourself.
It is not my fault that the translation YOU rely upon have some flaws that are worthy of being corrected...and it isn't a matter of how I WANT them translated, its a matter of what they actually say, Kevin.
If that were the case I would have embraced Universalism long ago.
On this Iv'e pointed out that the Bible uses aion and it's adjectives, never says they are endless.
Despite the many times it has been shown to you that the word CAN and most often DOES mean forever.
Now...why do you think the ones I have used...primarily the Weymouth New Testament, and Young's Literal, and the Rotherham, and the Concordant....are unreliable? Is it because that don't teach eternal torment and stick to the actual meaning of the Greek? Or because you know that they are unreliable in some way? Or is it that you know the ones you use have to be right because they are the ones that are sold the most?
they have been regarded as unreliable and weak translations virtually since they came out. Sure it is possible for the majority to be wrong-see Calvinism as an example of that. BUT this isn't the case here.
Kevin...what makes you think anyone is MY cronie?
It's a figure of speech Stephen, I am sorry I didn't mean to be offensive.
And, I'm sorry, but aren't you, also, reposting the same exact arguments over and over again.
No in fact this entire post has mostly been new stuff. :cloud9:
I'm still awaiting the one that says they will be in there forever.
Then you are blindly ignoring them.
And that answer still doesn't show them getting out! Forgetting the debate for the moment on forever,
why does it show them CLEARLY being cast in, but no CLEAR reference of them getting out? If I saw the Bible say somewhere, "And those who had formerly been in the Lake of Fire were seen to be rejoicing God for the salvation given to them" something of that nature, then I would have no problem agreeing with your doctrine. (Although it would sure raise a host of other questions because then the Bible would be in conflict with itself).
But thank the Lord that the Bible doesn't contradict itself and no such verse or verses exist!
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
A Scripture ascribing praise to God,
this does NOT teach that all will be saved, Stephen. This does not say
anything about the wicked being allowed out of the Lake of Fire, Stephen.
This does not say anything about Satan and the fallen angels being saved. All things are about God ultimately is what this means. God is the Creator, He should be praised and glorified forever! This is also in the context of Paul revealing that Israel's rejection by God is not final, and that He will one day return to Israel, but for now has offered salvation to the gentiles. Here is the passage IN ITS IMMEDIATE CONTEXT:
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “ Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?”
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
How about Romans 8:18-26? How about taking it all together?
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
It is clear that this text is about sin and it's effects on the whole of creation, and that all of creation awaits the liberty from sin that is coming. Just as WE who are Christians await the liberty that comes from leaving behind this body of sin! Again, where's the Universalism in that section of verses? Oh yes, nowhere to be found!
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
I am not certain how the fact that the fallen angels and Satan are very organized has anything to do with their eventual salvation? Knowing that they are very organized should cause us to watch out for false doctrine as well! Wolves in sheeps clothing come along and seduce people into believing lies my friend.
Colossians 1:9-20:
9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Wonderful passage of Scripture. It is all about the preeminence of Christ over all creation. There was false teaching from the Gnostics at the time that Paul was refuting in regards to angels having been the creators. Paul refuted them by quoting what was actually a popular hymn in the early church praising Christ for His being the head of His church AND all of creation! These verses do NOT ANYWHERE say that all will be saved! The idea of the text in verses 19-20is that through the sacrifice of Christ, peace will be restored in God's creation where now there is enmity and rebellion against God. The fullness in verse 19 is specifically speaking of Christ as our intercessor and the full embodiment of God. This was important because some false teachers were ascribing some intercessory powers to angels! Christ is the ONLY intercessor! (See 1 Timothy 2:5)
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
AMEN! Notice it doesn't say "He who believes in me after He is dead, will live!" I know that is what Universalism tries to force upon this text, but it doesn't say that at all. It says:
NKJV-
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
NASB-
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
Amplified-
25Jesus said to her, I am [Myself] the Resurrection and the Life. Whoever believes in (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on) Me, although he may die, yet he shall live;
Believers in Jesus Christ do not have to fear death is the message of this verse very clearly! Again, it doesn't say "He who believes in my AFTER he dies shall live!"
I haven't seen any shattering yet
Of course you haven't because you aren't looking for it! :wave:
God bless!
