BRXII Battle talk

[Nathon Detroit]

PK's third round post is my POTD. :first:

Excellent!

PK, has the luxury in this debate of simply preaching the gospel! And he did it brilliantly in round 3. Way to go pastor!

PK, could have coasted in round 3 since Logos flubbed up round 3 big time but instead PK brought out the big guns and shut the door hard. :up:

 

[Damian]

The items highlighted in red and bold indicate that you have exchanged the Gospel of Jesus for the Gospel of self. Your theology is built on what you think and feel and what you want to be true, not what Jesus and the Apostles have taught us. If these are the things that you truely hold to then I must caution you that you have missed the meaning of the gospel.

Actually, it is not my theology per se; I quoted from "A Course In Miracles."

"The belief in hell is inescapable to those who identify with the ego." ACIM

* Selah *

And I believe I do know the true meaning of the term "gospel." Gospel means "good news" and the good news is that God is love and love does not condemn because it does not judge. What is the gospel of traditional and historical Christianty? That the vast majority of humanity is destined for eternal damnation. This qualifies as "good news?" :think:

I think there is a direct correlation between those who espouse eternal damnation and an attitude of judgment; the two are inseparable. The ego or carnal mind wants to feel special; it wants to feel a part of the "in crowd." Those who espouse the doctrine of everlasting hell-fire "want it to be true." I suspect that it makes them feel good.

Do my beliefs reflect what "I think and feel?" Yes! And if they didn't "feel" right to me, I wouldn't be able to believe them. How can I believe in something that is not believable to me? It's not possible. And the notion that God's love and mercy are overidden by His wrath and judgment is not believable to me. Such a belief portrays an inadequate view of God's love. "My theology" depicts a much higher view of the divine. I actually believe that God is love.

Why isn't the option to accept Christ always available? Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment. The simplest answer to your question is may be the least satisfuing answer for you. God's will, God's plan for salvation is by Faith alone, in Christ alone. Faith is only available to you in this one short life on earth. After that, you will stand before Jesus and judged sheep or goat.

It is not I, cabinetmaker, that say these things, these are the things the Bible teaches. The Bible does not teach what I want to hear, it teaches me what I must know whether I agree or not. To ignor or changes the truth that the Bible teaches is to risk damnation.

That's your belief, not mine. And whether the Bible teaches eternal damnation is actuallly irrelevant. I was making a philosophical argument, not a biblical one.

 

[Damian]

For what it's worth, "But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful." -Jesus as recorded in Luke 6:35-36 NKJV :think:

Quite honestly, I have not found one evangelical who was able to tell me the rationale why we are called to love our enemies. Somewhere along the way, they dispensed with the "Sermon on the Mount."

 

[ChasClean]

PK,

I'll explain it simply. Physical death is temporary in it is not the end. The righteous will awaken to eternal life and the wicked to eternal damnation.

OK, let’s back up some and I will try to make myself clear. The post I originally started commenting on was this one:

Another premise that I will seek to establish is this: IF the Lake of Fire were not eternal, then the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, a perfect, sinless, and eternal being, would not have been necessary! In other words a temporary punishment would require a lesser sacrifice then the sacrifice of an eternal, divine being!

I stated that your premise is wrong. That the death that God pronounced in the garden and the death that Paul says is the wages of sin, is eternal. I said this eternal death was surely enough reason for an eternal being to die. We don’t need a questionably symbolic Lake of Fire. Death was good enough.

Your only defense in trying to prove that physical death is temporary is to talk about the way things are post the resurrection of Jesus. Of course we will awaken to life now. But that is not the point.

The point is that there is nothing in scripture to tell us that Adam was going to come out of death, until Christ made the way. Adam died. The whole list of people died. There was no promise of a resurrection. Death was not made unpermanent until after the cross.

If you are assuming Adam was not really dead, but a Greek mythological disembodied spirit, well, then at least admit you are assuming and not deducing from Scripture.

 

[ChasClean]

No it will be because that is what His Word plainly says.

What Revelation plainly says? Man, that is weak.

That's really all you can say?

Another "pastor" power play. Is that supposed to shut down the discussion? You are proclaiming what the Word plainly says, but I'm not?

Get off the high horse pastor and respond to what I said.

But then again, how can you? You can’t really defend your position. All you can do is pontificate saying, “The Lake of Fire is plain teaching.” Oh, yeah, it’s clear doctrinal truth. Right up there with John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Not.

Look, I’ll let you have your opinion. How can I stop you. But when you say that your opinion regarding the Lake of Fire is what the Word of God plainly says, as if that settles it, well, you can count on me to be there with a refutation.

 

[PKevman]

PK's third round post is my POTD. :first:

Excellent!

PK, has the luxury in this debate of simply preaching the gospel! And he did it brilliantly in round 3. Way to go pastor!

PK, could have coasted in round 3 since Logos flubbed up round 3 big time but instead PK brought out the big guns and shut the door hard. :up:

Thanks brother! I know you have seen it all over your years of running this site, so I respect your opinion immensely!

 

[Damian]

Why was the gospel preached to the dead?

6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Peter 4:6

Why did Jesus preach to the "spirits in prison?"

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1 Peter 3:18,19

Why are Christians "baptizing for the dead?"

29 ¶ Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 1 Corinthians 15:29

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Get off the high horse pastor and respond to what I said.

Me thinks someone needs an attitude adjustment. :nono:

 

[Redfin]

ITs okay to admit that you can't find a single verse in the Bible that says you can find salvation after death. That is because the Bible has no verse in that says you can find salvation after death.

Multiple ones have been found and shared by me and others and ignored or denied by you.

In accordance with Jesus' direction, I will stop "casting pearls," at least in your direction. :doh:

 

[Redfin]

Read the debate.

I have. I am still waiting.

Do you think you could do better than Logos?

I would do it differently, no doubt, in some respects. Whether or not I would do better is anybody's guess.

Stephen's great disadvantage here is that his position requires the majority of people here to at least temporarily suspend their belief system while considering his propositions. That is much more difficult than we imagine. :think:

 

[PKevman]

I have. I am still waiting.



I would do it differently, no doubt, in some respects. Whether or not I would do better is anybody's guess.

Stephen's great disadvantage here is that his position requires the majority of people here to at least temporarily suspend their belief system while considering his propositions. That is much more difficult than we imagine. :think:

So can YOU supply a Bible verse that clearly shows someone repenting after death? Or that shows Satan and the fallen angels being redeemed? Or that clearly shows those who have been cast into the Lake of Fire getting out? Or that clearly shows those who do not have their names written in the Book of Life getting their names written back INTO the Book of Life? Or that shows that Jesus was not right when He said the fires of torment would not ever be quenched?

The challenge is not to "get people to suspend their belief system". The challenge is to get people to abandon Biblical truth for things that cannot be shown to exist anywhere in God's Holy Word.

God bless.

 

[ChasClean]

Me thinks someone needs an attitude adjustment.

I think this post that I was responding to reveals a whole lot more attitude than what you are willing to admit.

No it will be because that is what His Word plainly says.

 

[belboy87]

So can YOU supply a Bible verse that clearly shows someone repenting after death?

Can you supply one shoing that they don't? Oh, right... Lake of Fire... the same Lake that consumes hell and death. Riiiiight...

Do you know someone named hell and death? Cause if you don't, I think the only hell and death that are getting thrown into the Lake of Fire are the ones that would demonstrate that your literal translation of the LOF is baseless.

But, I'm sure that you do consider Revelation as a very sound fortress to run to... :luigi:

 

[belboy87]

Oh, one more thing... One huge advantage to "most" Christian Universalists is this....

We've been there.

We know what it's like to believe in Eternal Torment. We know the arguments and the "defence" of the eternal burning of billions of people. We know what it's like to justify the spiritual death of 90% of humanity, and to thank God that "but for the grace of God, there go I".

We know.

You don't know. You didn't become a Universalist and then realize the "truths" of eternal torment... That gives us an upperhand in SOME ways... because we can relate to the trapped feeling of "wait, if this is true... what have I been TEACHING all my life?!" It is truly scary, no doubt.

We have considered the possibility here, and seen the undeniable facts. And weighed them side by side to see them.

You haven't. Which is why this is so difficult to communicate. Because we have come to you, out of the blue sky... and given you "Good News", and it's hard to swallow!

I guess what I'm getting at is. I understand why you feel the way that you do.

 

[ChasClean]

So can YOU supply a Bible verse that clearly shows someone repenting after death? Or that shows Satan and the fallen angels being redeemed? Or that clearly shows those who have been cast into the Lake of Fire getting out? Or that clearly shows those who do not have their names written in the Book of Life getting their names written back INTO the Book of Life? Or that shows that Jesus was not right when He said the fires of torment would not ever be quenched?

The challenge is to get people to abandon Biblical truth for things that cannot be shown to exist anywhere in God's Holy Word.

Of course we can't supply those verses. Not to those who are at the place of refusing to see.

But do you believe the bible verses that unequivocally say that no one can come to the Jesus unless the Father draws him. That Jesus will lose nothing that the Father has given Him. That the Father has given Him all things. That Jesus has taken away the sin of the world. It is the Father’s will that all be saved. That the purposes of the Father’s Will will all be fulfilled. That every knee is going to bow, UNDER the earth, ON the earth, and in the HEAVEN to the GLORY (not to the slavery) of God the Father. That God has placed all of creation in futility, so that He could deliver us into glorious freedom. That He has locked up all in disobedience, so that He might have mercy on all.

No. The challenge is be delivered from a mindset of eternal torment judgment INTO a mindset of God's wonderful merciful judgment.

But we believe God is up to the challenge.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Multiple ones have been found and shared by me and others and ignored or denied by you.

In accordance with Jesus' direction, I will stop "casting pearls," at least in your direction. :doh:

You have an interesting way of sharing the gospel. It weems that when people really push you on your beliefs you find yourself unable to support them. So instead of digging into the Bible for support of your beliefs you accuse me of being a swine.

As to the multiple verses quoted by you and Logos and Zadok, I have looked them all up to see if what you are saying is true. I have yet to find one verse that has not been quoted out of context.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Of course we can't supply those verses. Not to those who are at the place of refusing to see.

Under the category of refusing to see, I ask you to consider these verses:

Matthew 7:13-15 (New International Version)
The Narrow and Wide Gates
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Can you explain what these verses mean? Who was Jesus talking too? What was he trying to teach?

 

[solarb]

smoke and mirrors

smoke and mirrors

Pastor Kevin -- Really? Were the Jews the authors of the Bible? Yes. ---Were the Jews the authors of the Old Testament? Yes! Do we find a description in the Old Testament of eternal punishment? YES!
Psalm 140:10
10 Let burning coals fall upon them; Let them be cast into the fire, Into deep pits, that they rise not up again.


I find it interesting that pastor Kevin uses psalms 140:10 actually it's 140:11 ( a book of prayers ) as proof of eternal punishment.....Whats up with this????



Now what it really says
May he rain burning coals upon them; May he cast them into the depths never to rise.
this is nothing more than a prayer.

stop all the smoke and mirrors already
I find it a waste of time when people use scripture intentionally to decieve

 

[solarb]

Is this still more smoke and mirrors

Is this still more smoke and mirrors

Pastor Kevin
And He said to them,

24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

PastorKevin Question #15: Is Jesus a liar? Will all be saved as Universalism tries to assert? Or is Jesus correct when He says many will seek to enter and will not be able?

PastorKevin Question #16: Is the gate narrow? Jesus also said the way to life is very narrow! IS the way to life narrow and only a few find it as Jesus says in John?

25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’

The Lord is clearly illustrating what judgment day will be like. They will be turned away because they do not KNOW the Lord!

PastorKevin Question #17: Is this passage true? Will many try to get into Heaven under false pretenses and not be let in because they do not know Christ? IF Universalism is true and all are saved, why are they turned away by the Lord in this illustration?

26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’

This is again just talking about doing good works and serving Christ. These people were depending on their works to save them!

27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’

Though these people were doing things they thought would get them to Heaven, Christ calls them workers of iniquity and tells them flat out to depart. In laymen’s terms He is saying “Get lost!”

Departing from God is also being out of the presence of God. The worst aspect of the Lake of Fire is the eternal separation from God and not the tormenting fire!

28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

Notice the statement there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. It is a very clear description of Hell that is used in the New Testament to describe what Hell will be like! It is a place of devastating torment, and according the Bible lasts forever and ever!

...........I find it interesting that Pastor Kevin left out vs 29 and 30 in this rebuttal.
VS:29 AND PEOPLE WILL COME FROM THE EAST AND THE WEST AND FROM THE NORTH AND THE SOUTH AND WILL RECLINE AT THE TABLE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD. VS:30 FOR BEHOLD, Some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.
Could this mean you didn't make it through the narrow gate at first?
And if you are now last and not first like you thought, where do you think you went until
then????????
Pastor Kevin I would like you to be thorough in your postings. When you pick and choose words to prove your point it appears to be misleading. Of course go ahead if that is your intent.

 

[bigbang123]

my opinion

PastorKevin's position - biblical and one of the biggest obstacles to faith in the bible being divinely authored. he fully embraces the despicable teaching of the bible on the subject.

Logos_X position - biblically based wishful grasping at hemeneutical straws. he unsuccessfully trys to explain why the supposedly misunderstood teaching of scriptures is
not as despicable as it appears.