Britain becoming totalitarian police state

Gary K

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Britain is becoming nothing more than a police state according to former Supreme Court justice Lord Sumption. And why? Coronavirus.

The United Kingdom is in serious danger of replacing democracy with totalitarianism, one of Britain’s most distinguished legal minds, Lord Sumption has warned.

Lord Sumption — author, lawyer, and former Supreme Court Justice — made his devastating critique of government policy at the Cambridge Freshfields Annual Law Lecture, delivered by Zoom.

He began:
During the Covid-19 pandemic, the British state has exercised coercive powers over its citizens on a scale never previously attempted. It has taken effective legal control, enforced by the police, over the personal lives of the entire population: where they could go, whom they could meet, what they could do even within their own homes. For three months it placed everybody under a form of house arrest, qualified only by their right to do a limited number of things approved by ministers. All of this has been authorised by ministerial decree with minimal Parliamentary involvement. It has been the most significant interference with personal freedom in the history of our country. We have never sought to do such a thing before, even in wartime and even when faced with health crises far more serious than this one.​

Many of the measures forced by the government, Sumption maintains, were probably illegal. He notes that the government has claimed to derive authority for its most draconian measures from the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, as amended in 2008. But this Act grants magistrates the rights to quarantine, isolate or disinfect infectious people. It makes no provision, he says, for the control of healthy people.
There is no specific power under the Act to confine or control the movements of healthy people. To interpret it as conferring such a power would not only be inconsistent with the principle of legality.
Even the lockdown itself was, at least initially, illegal.
In his televised press conference of 23 March, the Prime Minister described his announcement of the lockdown as an “instruction” to the British people. He said that he was “immediately” stopping gatherings of more than two people in public and all social events except funerals. A number of police forces announced within minutes of the broadcast that they would be enforcing this at once. The Health Secretary, Mr. Hancock, made a statement in the House of Commons the next day in which he said: “these measures are not advice; they are rules.” All of this was bluff. Even on the widest view of the legislation, the government had no power to give such orders without making statutory regulations. No such regulations existed until 1 p.m. on 26 March, three days after the announcement. The Prime Minister had no power to give “instructions” to the British people, and certainly no power to do so by a mere oral announcement at a Downing Street press conference. The police had no power to enforce them. Mr Hancock’s statement in the House of Commons was not correct. Until 26 March the government’s statements were not rules, but advice, which every citizen was at liberty to ignore.
He is concerned too about the ‘remarkable discretionary powers of enforcement conferred on the police’. The police, he notes, have ‘substantially exceeded’ even these ‘vast powers.’
In the period immediately after the announcement of the lockdown, a number of Chief Constables announced that they would stop people acting in a way which the regarded as inessential, although there was no warrant for this in the regulations. One of them threatened to go through the shopping baskets of those exercising their right to obtain supplies, so as to ensure that they were not buying anything that his constables might regard as inessential. Other forces set up road blocks to enforce powers that they did not have. Derbyshire police notoriously sent up surveillance drones and published on the internet a film clip denouncing people taking exercise in the Derbyshire fells, something which people were absolutely entitled to do. When I ventured to criticise them in a BBC interview for acting beyond their powers, I received a letter from the Derbyshire Police Commissioner objecting to my remarks on the ground that in a crisis such things were necessary. The implication was that in a crisis the police were entitled to do whatever they thought fit, without being unduly concerned about their legal powers. That is my definition of a police state.
The British public, he concludes, has been frightened by government propaganda into demanding authoritarian protection – in the name of ‘safety’ – which it will come seriously to regret.
The British public has not even begun to understand the seriousness of what is happening to our country. Many, perhaps most of them don’t care, and won’t care until it is too late. They instinctively feel that the end justifies the means, the motto of every totalitarian government which has ever been. Yet what holds us together as a society is precisely the means by which we do things. It is a common respect for a way of making collective decisions, even if we disagree with the decisions themselves. It is difficult to respect the way in which this government’s decisions have been made. It marks a move to a more authoritarian model of politics which will outlast the present crisis. There is little doubt that for some ministers and their advisers this is a desirable outcome. The next few years is likely to see a radical and lasting transformation of the relationship between the state and the citizen. With it will come an equally fundamental change in our relations with each other, a change characterized by distrust, resentment and mutual hostility. In the nature of things, authoritarian governments fracture the societies which they govern. The use of political power as an instrument of mass coercion is corrosive. It divides and it embitters. In this case, it is aggravated by the sustained assault on social interaction which will sooner or later loosen the glue that helped us to deal with earlier crises. The unequal impact of the government’s measures is eroding any sense of national solidarity. The poor, the inadequately housed, the precariously employed and the socially isolated have suffered most from the government’s measures. Above all, the young, who are little affected by the disease itself, have been made to bear almost all the burden, in the form of blighted educational opportunities and employment prospects whose effects will last for years.
Democracy, he says, may now be finished in the United Kingdom.
What will replace it is a nominal democracy, with a less deliberative and consensual style and an authoritarian reality which we will like a great deal less.​
‘This is What a Police State is Like’: Ex-Supreme Court Justice Sounds Alarm on Lock down Overreach https://t.co/tbiGTlT5TR
— Breitbart London (@BreitbartLondon) April 1, 2020

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/20...er-in-britain-warns-top-lawyer-lord-sumption/

And as the article states, the Brit's are demanding it. This is the result of decades of socialist influence and a socialist press. Well, you're getting what you want. Goodbye liberty. Hello police state. The logical end of socialism.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
And as the article states, the Brit's are demanding it. This is the result of decades of socialist influence and a socialist press. Well, you're getting what you want. Goodbye liberty. Hello police state. The logical end of socialism.

You'll find no brits here to speak against it
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Britain is becoming nothing more than a police state according to former Supreme Court justice Lord Sumption. And why? Coronavirus.



https://www.breitbart.com/europe/20...er-in-britain-warns-top-lawyer-lord-sumption/

And as the article states, the Brit's are demanding it. This is the result of decades of socialist influence and a socialist press. Well, you're getting what you want. Goodbye liberty. Hello police state. The logical end of socialism.

Erm, no, the Brits are not "demanding it" and frankly, there's a fair bit of criticism aimed at the current administration in regards as to the inconsistency of measures and rulings as to how this has been handled since the initial lockdown, certainly in England. The original measures were clear but since the lockdown was eased to relax constraints, it's been unclear and frankly, poorly handled. To say that we live in a "police state" is simply ignorant however. I have no problems in following health and safety protocols and I'm not some snowflake who has a problem with wearing a mask when shopping etc. I am concerned with how the situation has been dealt with however.
 

eider

Well-known member
Britain is becoming nothing more than a police state according to former Supreme Court justice Lord Sumption. And why? Coronavirus.

And as the article states, the Brit's are demanding it. This is the result of decades of socialist influence and a socialist press. Well, you're getting what you want. Goodbye liberty. Hello police state. The logical end of socialism.

Don't think so.
Doing our best to join together to fight this sickness is mostly about 'team'.
The Covid sickness is escalating faster than our specialist's 'worse case scenario'.

Our Government is Conservative, but most of us will support it's decisions just now.

And 'Police State'..... ? Our Police don't do what some of yours have been doing recently. Sort out your own mess first, is my suggestion.
 

eider

Well-known member
Erm, no, the Brits are not "demanding it" and frankly, there's a fair bit of criticism aimed at the current administration in regards as to the inconsistency of measures and rulings as to how this has been handled since the initial lockdown, certainly in England. The original measures were clear but since the lockdown was eased to relax constraints, it's been unclear and frankly, poorly handled. To say that we live in a "police state" is simply ignorant however. I have no problems in following health and safety protocols and I'm not some snowflake who has a problem with wearing a mask when shopping etc. I am concerned with how the situation has been dealt with however.

Sure, many of us here can see where our government has made mistakes, but mistakes get made in serious times, and even if we are talking about 'unclear rules' and 'unfair decisions' we'll still mostly stay together.


This isn't at its worst yet, and I seem to remember the OP making some really stupid claims only a few weeks ago, about how this sickness could be sorted so easily.........

........... why would I listen to his daftness now?
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Sure, many of us here can see where our government has made mistakes, but mistakes get made in serious times, and even if we are talking about 'unclear rules' and 'unfair decisions' we'll still mostly stay together.


This isn't at its worst yet, and I seem to remember the OP making some really stupid claims only a few weeks ago, about how this sickness could be sorted so easily.........

........... why would I listen to his daftness now?

Sure, as communities but I can understand the cynicism and frustration with the inconsistent guidelines as well. For me, it's ridiculous that certain pubs can remain in operation if they serve food while the ones that don't have to close once again if we hit a tier 3 lockdown. There's no rhyme or reason to that. If we end up going into a total lockdown again then it's moot but there's too much vagueness going on as if they're making up rules as they go along. Anybody who thinks this virus could be "sorted" was in a dreamworld...
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Don't think so.
Doing our best to join together to fight this sickness is mostly about 'team'.
The Covid sickness is escalating faster than our specialist's 'worse case scenario'.

Our Government is Conservative, but most of us will support it's decisions just now.

And 'Police State'..... ? Our Police don't do what some of yours have been doing recently. Sort out your own mess first, is my suggestion.

Heck, America is doing the worst where it comes to Covid-19 now, and yet el Trumpo claims they've "turned the corner" on it?

Unreal.
 

eider

Well-known member
Sure, as communities but I can understand the cynicism and frustration with the inconsistent guidelines as well. For me, it's ridiculous that certain pubs can remain in operation if they serve food while the ones that don't have to close once again if we hit a tier 3 lockdown.
That surely is totally bonkers. And gyms can be open .......... and cafes, but if three people from different homes sit at one table then that breaks the rules.
But I'll bet that Boris and his lot are wishing that Labour was in power.... from time to time. It must be hellish, trying to get something right just now.

There's no rhyme or reason to that. If we end up going into a total lockdown again then it's moot but there's too much vagueness going on as if they're making up rules as they go along. Anybody who thinks this virus could be "sorted" was in a dreamworld...
After this morning's news my Missus reckons that we will be in a Nationwide 'one-month' Lockdown as early as Monday.
All of us together, which might help to give support to Northerners who think that their lockdowns have been unfair.

What idiots have been poo-pooing this blooming sickness? !!
 

eider

Well-known member
Heck, America is doing the worst where it comes to Covid-19 now, and yet el Trumpo claims they've "turned the corner" on it?

Unreal.

I don't 'google' US losses any more, and haven't for weeks now.
We are entering a period of seriously high covid increase here and we've got to face our own difficulties with our leader's own misjudgments over recent months. Not that Labour could have got it all perfect...... they couldn't have, imo.

The USA must make its own decisions about this sickness, and what it thinks about its President's leadership. Not our problem. :)
 

expos4ever

Well-known member
The USA must make its own decisions about this sickness, and what it thinks about its President's leadership. Not our problem. :)
I think is our problem to at least some degree - if Donald Trump is re-elected, it would be seen as a win by knuckledraggers in our countries. To the extent that their dim minds are then galvanized into action, it is indeed a problem for all of us. It is happening here in Quebec - some pinheads have been out in the street carrying QAnon posters. A closed border has not function as a barrier to stupidity - it is leaking northward.
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Sure, many of us here can see where our government has made mistakes, but mistakes get made in serious times, and even if we are talking about 'unclear rules' and 'unfair decisions' we'll still mostly stay together.


This isn't at its worst yet, and I seem to remember the OP making some really stupid claims only a few weeks ago, about how this sickness could be sorted so easily.........

........... why would I listen to his daftness now?

The OP's source is Breitbart. OP's medical advice comes from Trumpers.

Misinfo, conspiracy, and craziness abounds...
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
The UK is solidly on the Democratic left, no chance it's sliding into a "totalitarian police state" anytime soon.

"Totalitarian police state" does define Trump's Republican Party however, as it's made its rapid approach to the illiberal right.

Screen-Shot-2020-10-31-at-8-08-15-AM.png



Republicans closely resemble autocratic parties in Hungary and Turkey – study
Swedish university finds ‘dramatic shift’ in GOP under Trump, shunning democratic norms and encouraging violence


The Republican party has become dramatically more illiberal in the past two decades and now more closely resembles ruling parties in autocratic societies than its former centre-right equivalents in Europe, according to a new international study.

In a significant shift since 2000, the GOP has taken to demonising and encouraging violence against its opponents, adopting attitudes and tactics comparable to ruling nationalist parties in Hungary, India, Poland and Turkey.

The shift has both led to and been driven by the rise of Donald Trump.

By contrast the Democratic party has changed little in its attachment to democratic norms, and in that regard has remained similar to centre-right and centre-left parties in western Europe. Their principal difference is the approach to the economy.

The new study, the largest ever of its kind, was carried out by the V-Dem Institute at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden, using newly developed methods to measure and quantify the health of the world’s democracies at a time when authoritarianism is on the rise.

Anna Lührmann, V-Dem’s deputy director, said the Republican transformation had been “certainly the most dramatic shift in an established democracy”.
 

The Barbarian

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Banned
Gee, isn't that a surprise. Why do you think so many libertarian-oriented conservative republicans are doing everything they can to make sure Trump loses?

They want their party back and the neo-fascists out.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
........... why would I listen to his daftness now?


It's not "his daftness" - it's an article written by YOUR former Supreme Court Justice. Why not address the points that Sumption made in the article?
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
That surely is totally bonkers. And gyms can be open .......... and cafes, but if three people from different homes sit at one table then that breaks the rules.
But I'll bet that Boris and his lot are wishing that Labour was in power.... from time to time. It must be hellish, trying to get something right just now.


After this morning's news my Missus reckons that we will be in a Nationwide 'one-month' Lockdown as early as Monday.
All of us together, which might help to give support to Northerners who think that their lockdowns have been unfair.

What idiots have been poo-pooing this blooming sickness? !!

Well, all the signs are pointing to another total lockdown. Just waiting on a delayed press conference where Johnson is expected to announce it starting from Monday until December 2nd with the exception of schools and universities.

Fun...it's only idiots who have been downplaying this virus.
 

chair

Well-known member
I suspect that people who really do live in police states would laugh at the suggestion that British Covid restrictions are totalitarian.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
I suspect that people who really do live in police states would laugh at the suggestion that British Covid restrictions are totalitarian.

Care to address the specific concerns raised by Sumption in the OP?
 
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