Bob Enyart vs.Gary DeMar Debate

[patman]

I understand where you both are coming from.

Here are a few considerations:

1) all other generations did pass before seeing His kingdom. This is the first generation where being absent from the body was being present with the Lord.

This generation did see Him go to the clouds.

This generation did see His messianic fulfillment.

What is missing and what the settled view will never be able to truly pretend away is that Jesus said the kingdom would be established in that generations life time. All prophecy that puts a time table on this places it to that generation.

Daniel 9 speaks of it in terms of years. When you add up the years (aka weeks/sevens) from the first event mentioned up through the next event, you get a match every time except for the last one.. the kingdom and the antichrist...

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree [f] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, [g] the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. [h] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' [j] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [k] "

Why didn't it happen??? 500ish years after Jerusalem was ordered to be rebuilt until Jesus's death is dead on the money.. but what about 7 years after that when the Antichrist would do his evil deeds? They never happened. And the end was not poured out...

Jesus confirms to his apostiles that the abomination that causes desolation would happen to that his apostles... he didn't say "tell people who come after you to look out for this event" he is telling THEM because it was supposed to happen to them.

There is just no getting around it. Jesus was supposed to return with the Kingdom 2000 years ago.

 

[Lon]

What is missing and what the settled view will never be able to truly pretend away is that Jesus said the kingdom would be established in that generations life time. All prophecy that puts a time table on this places it to that generation.

Daniel 9 speaks of it in terms of years. When you add up the years (aka weeks/sevens) from the first event mentioned up through the next event, you get a match every time except for the last one.. the kingdom and the antichrist...

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree [f] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, [g] the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. [h] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' [j] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [k] "

Why didn't it happen??? 500ish years after Jerusalem was ordered to be rebuilt until Jesus's death is dead on the money.. but what about 7 years after that when the Antichrist would do his evil deeds? They never happened. And the end was not poured out...

Jesus confirms to his apostiles that the abomination that causes desolation would happen to that his apostles... he didn't say "tell people who come after you to look out for this event" he is telling THEM because it was supposed to happen to them.

There is just no getting around it. Jesus was supposed to return with the Kingdom 2000 years ago.

I'm not sure I could say this. There are many different camps on this interpretation and I'd expect possibly even among OV theologians. If not, there certainly are among SV theologians. Some agree with you and many others believe these prophecies were fullfilled. At the moment, I hold a loose interpetation that these things had an immediate fulfillment with a future fullfillment at the end of all things yet to come.

 

[patman]

I'm not sure I could say this. There are many different camps on this interpretation and I'd expect possibly even among OV theologians. If not, there certainly are among SV theologians. Some agree with you and many others believe these prophecies were fullfilled. At the moment, I hold a loose interpetation that these things had an immediate fulfillment with a future fullfillment at the end of all things yet to come.

Just read it as it is said... who gave us the right to add to the words and claim they are right.

The angel told Daniel when things will happen, and when you do the math, everything adds up, Jesus died on schedule. Look into it, listen to what is said.

Check this out too, the book of Daniel is defiantly pointing to this Generation:

Daniel 11 as history

 

[Lon]

Just read it as it is said... who gave us the right to add to the words and claim they are right.

The angel told Daniel when things will happen, and when you do the math, everything adds up, Jesus died on schedule. Look into it, listen to what is said.

Check this out too, the book of Daniel is defiantly pointing to this Generation:

Daniel 11 as history

Right, but I've seen plenty of positions on the last kingdom timeline.

 

[patman]

Right, but I've seen plenty of positions on the last kingdom timeline.

Just another opinion...? I can respect that. For what is worth, and if you read and do your own research you will see what I did, that Daniel 11 matches perfectly with history up until before Jesus' death happened.

Someone has to be right about this,,, what if I were on to something you hadn't really considered? What if it turned out to be right? And you dismissed it just because it was another position?

You can't ignore:

1. Jesus said none would taste death until they saw the kingdom as it's full glory in that generation.

2. Daniel 11 matches remarkably well with history up until this time in question. So does Daniel 9's counting of the years. The prophecy is true all the way until this time...

3. If God knew the future, he would NEVER say something would happen when he knew it really wouldn't...

 

[Lon]

Just another opinion...? I can respect that. For what is worth, and if you read and do your own research you will see what I did, that Daniel 11 matches perfectly with history up until before Jesus' death happened.

Someone has to be right about this,,, what if I were on to something you hadn't really considered? What if it turned out to be right? And you dismissed it just because it was another position?

You can't ignore:

1. Jesus said none would taste death until they saw the kingdom as it's full glory in that generation.

2. Daniel 11 matches remarkably well with history up until this time in question. So does Daniel 9's counting of the years. The prophecy is true all the way until this time...

3. If God knew the future, he would NEVER say something would happen when he knew it really wouldn't...

That scenario leaves God 'wrong.' I've seen that position but this is an unacceptable way of thinking from my view. It is inherently flawed because God does not make mistakes.

In every case of future prophecy, it is God who does the interpreting, otherwise we line up prophecy according to our perception which is often incorrect. The book of Revelation has created dozens of positions on millenialism, rapture, and the end times. My position?
Until God weighs in, we have a sketch and the big picture is yet to be revealed until .......It is revealed. After that, I'll have a strong hermenuetic understanding.

 

[bling]

I am not a pre-millennium believer, so these passages do not present a problem to me. If we say all the Old Testament promises and prophecies have not been completed then the Jews even today have something to give up in order to become a Christian. I am of the belief all the O.T. promises have been completed with the destruction of Jerusalem. The Kingdom is here in Christians today and was in Christians in the first century. The Kingdom is not of the world and is not eating and drinking in the flesh. Christ is on the throne and is ruling in the hearts of Christians. Satan is limited on a short chain. We are in the figurative 1000 year reign right now.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Now you are leaving this thread without ever solving your riddle.

That you didn't like the answer doesn't mean that he didn't answer it.

 

[patman]

That scenario leaves God 'wrong.' I've seen that position but this is an unacceptable way of thinking from my view. It is inherently flawed because God does not make mistakes.

In every case of future prophecy, it is God who does the interpreting, otherwise we line up prophecy according to our perception which is often incorrect. The book of Revelation has created dozens of positions on millenialism, rapture, and the end times. My position?
Until God weighs in, we have a sketch and the big picture is yet to be revealed until .......It is revealed. After that, I'll have a strong hermenuetic understanding.

God isn't making mistakes in the Open View. He is adapting to our mistakes.

IF the prophecy was truly to take place as I say, and as scripture makes it so clear, then you have to deal with that. How will you deal is up to you. I recommend you consider the OV as I did. The Open Theist does not need to make up odd answers or make up excuses for God like other theologies does.

You are not among those who take future knowledge to the next step and say God ordained sin... but that is really the only place you can take it. God simply doesn't look at the future, he also acts on it if he looks. His actions from creation on are directly applied to him.

God makes the determination in scripture that if we change our hearts, he will change the prophecy. This isn't debatable. The question it should raise for you is how can a future knowing God ever do this without lying about the prophecy to begin with... This isn't aimed at you, but truly, the Settled View sets God up as a liar and being "wrong."

 

[ApologeticJedi]

That scenario leaves God 'wrong.' I've seen that position but this is an unacceptable way of thinking from my view. It is inherently flawed because God does not make mistakes.

No one is saying that God made a mistake, but neither should you suggest that we put our heads in the sand and disregard the dozens of passages as if they don't appear in the Bible.

When the Bible says in Joshua that God will "utterly, and without fail" drive off all the heathens form the promise land (Joshua 3:10), we can either admit that didn't happen, or we can say "that view makes God look like he made a mistake so I'm not going to address it."

God doesn't make mistakes, but a mistake is not the only method of resolving why some prophecy doesn't come to pass.

 

[Lon]

Hebrew prophecy is a bit different than my understanding of logic, faith, and fulfilment. For instance "Out of Egypt, I called my son." I could never have predicted until NT writers tell us this was a prophecy with a dual fulfillment. My mind doesn't think like that. It is rather God who is the interpreter here. He tells us this is a messianic prophecy so we should believe Him. Does it make sense? Not to my western/greek way of logical thinking. Daniel is one of those for me. If you compare Daniel to Revelation there are parallels. I've seen a lot of work on these and I believe, just like the Jews of their respective days, that we often get it wrong. Some prophecy is just not going to fit our interpretation until God says "This is how it was fulfilled."

Look at how the disciples asked about Elijah and whether he was John the Baptist. Jesus completely blows their prophecy interpretation out of the water and even suggests that there is a future fulfillment to take place. I came to a conclusion there as well. Until God weighs in, my interpretation is speculative.

When you have Covenant theology believing one thing, Dispensationalism another and a myriad of inbetween interpretations of all prophecy, well, I'm speculative at best.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Hebrew prophecy is a bit different than my understanding of logic, faith, and fulfilment. For instance "Out of Egypt, I called my son." I could never have predicted until NT writers tell us this was a prophecy with a dual fulfillment. My mind doesn't think like that. It is rather God who is the interpreter here. He tells us this is a messianic prophecy so we should believe Him.

I agree that the "out of Egypt" reference is an example of dual prophecy that is of a different concept than we understand. However not all prophecy is like that. Some is very straight forward.

The question is, what do you do with God's promise in Joshua to "utterly and without fail" establish Israel alone in the promise land - a promise God explicitly revokes the book of Judges? This isn't an example of dual prophecy. God makes the prophecy and then tells that it will not come to pass.

Surely you must admit that Open Theism answers this best of all.

 

[Lon]

I agree that the "out of Egypt" reference is an example of dual prophecy that is of a different concept than we understand. However not all prophecy is like that. Some is very straight forward.

The question is, what do you do with God's promise in Joshua to "utterly and without fail" establish Israel alone in the promise land - a promise God explicitly revokes the book of Judges? This isn't an example of dual prophecy. God makes the prophecy and then tells that it will not come to pass.

Surely you must admit that Open Theism answers this best of all.

My answer is that this 'promise' was conditional. Whose job was it to take the land? The Israelites understood they had to do the work and that God would bless and make them victorious. Why weren't they victorious then? God kept His promise in this specific passage.

This kind of promise is like this to my kids: "If you will vacuum, I will make sure there is electricity, that the vacuum works properly, and that the bag is emptied. If you vacuum, the floors will be clean."

Did I fail in my promise if they did not vaccum?

 

[ApologeticJedi]

My answer is that this 'promise' was conditional.

Of course it was conditional, that’s exactly the point! That’s the Open position.
Most prophecy is conditional according to Jeremiah 18:7-10.

Did I fail in my promise if they did not vaccum?

What God was promising was that He would drive out the other inhabitants. God practically chastised Israel when they tried to vacuum the floor and insisted they only tag along while he gave victory after victory in manners where no one but God could receive the glory.

But joining this back to conditional prophecies, when a parent tells their child that if they will vacuum then they can go get ice cream this evening, and they vacuum as asked, but later torment their brother or sister. The dad is perfectly just is not allowing them to get ice cream. That’s not immoral. You’d have to hate your children to say “Well I’m going to let you have ice cream anyway.”

So now that you’ve admitted that promises from God are conditional, then perhaps you are ready to retract your statements like ;
“that scenario leaves God 'wrong.'”
“It is inherently flawed because God does not make mistakes.”

Since now we agree that God is not wrong and does not make mistakes, but that prophecies are conditional.

 

[patman]

Hebrew prophecy is a bit different than my understanding of logic, faith, and fulfilment. For instance "Out of Egypt, I called my son." I could never have predicted until NT writers tell us this was a prophecy with a dual fulfillment. My mind doesn't think like that. It is rather God who is the interpreter here. He tells us this is a messianic prophecy so we should believe Him. Does it make sense? Not to my western/greek way of logical thinking. Daniel is one of those for me. If you compare Daniel to Revelation there are parallels. I've seen a lot of work on these and I believe, just like the Jews of their respective days, that we often get it wrong. Some prophecy is just not going to fit our interpretation until God says "This is how it was fulfilled."

Look at how the disciples asked about Elijah and whether he was John the Baptist. Jesus completely blows their prophecy interpretation out of the water and even suggests that there is a future fulfillment to take place. I came to a conclusion there as well. Until God weighs in, my interpretation is speculative.

When you have Covenant theology believing one thing, Dispensationalism another and a myriad of inbetween interpretations of all prophecy, well, I'm speculative at best.

God didn't make all of his prophecies so hard to understand. In fact most of the prophecy books, God is plainly telling the prophet what is going to happen... for example:

Joshua 3
10 And Joshua said, “By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites: 11 Behold, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth is crossing over before you into the Jordan.

Exodus 23:23
For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off.

See, so far? God is very confident about what will happen.... Those countries are gonners...

But wait, what is this.......

Joshua 15:63
As for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem to this day.

And check this out too... those same nations, left there intentionally by God...

1 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, that He might test Israel by them, that is, all who had not known any of the wars in Canaan 2 (this was only so that the generations of the children of Israel might be taught to know war, at least those who had not formerly known it), 3 namely, five lords of the Philistines, all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites who dwelt in Mount Lebanon, from Mount Baal Hermon to the entrance of Hamath. 4 And they were left, that He might test Israel by them, to know whether they would obey the commandments of the LORD, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.
5 Thus the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 6 And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons; and they served their gods.

Judges 2
1 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side,[a] and their gods shall be a snare to you.’”

Check out the area today... these people still are around.

HOW can such a clear prophecy change so much? If God knew the future, he would never have lied about what he was going to do. He would have known they would try and fail, and he would have told them that. He would have known he would stop helping them drive out those nations to, so he wouldn't have said he would do something he knew very well he wouldn't....

Lonester, please don't read my post and just look for a way to refute it before you consider these points. There are so many things like this in the Bible. The prophecy is clear, the Bible itself points out it didn't take place and in fact never would.

 

[Lon]

God didn't make all of his prophecies so hard to understand. In fact most of the prophecy books, God is plainly telling the prophet what is going to happen... for example:

Joshua 3
10 And Joshua said, “By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites: 11 Behold, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth is crossing over before you into the Jordan.

Exodus 23:23
For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off.

See, so far? God is very confident about what will happen.... Those countries are gonners...

But wait, what is this.......

Joshua 15:63
As for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem to this day.

And check this out too... those same nations, left there intentionally by God...

1 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, that He might test Israel by them, that is, all who had not known any of the wars in Canaan 2 (this was only so that the generations of the children of Israel might be taught to know war, at least those who had not formerly known it), 3 namely, five lords of the Philistines, all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites who dwelt in Mount Lebanon, from Mount Baal Hermon to the entrance of Hamath. 4 And they were left, that He might test Israel by them, to know whether they would obey the commandments of the LORD, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.
5 Thus the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 6 And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons; and they served their gods.

Judges 2
1 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side,[a] and their gods shall be a snare to you.’”

Check out the area today... these people still are around.

HOW can such a clear prophecy change so much? If God knew the future, he would never have lied about what he was going to do. He would have known they would try and fail, and he would have told them that. He would have known he would stop helping them drive out those nations to, so he wouldn't have said he would do something he knew very well he wouldn't....

Lonester, please don't read my post and just look for a way to refute it before you consider these points. There are so many things like this in the Bible. The prophecy is clear, the Bible itself points out it didn't take place and in fact never would.

Okay, I read it and didn't just think of refutation.

So here is the deal, first I'll ask clarifying questions and then you can tell me what you think or believe.

First of all, how clear do you see this? What specifically happened with the promise?

We must either see it was fulfilled in a way we do not understand or we must believe that God made a mistake. Is there another option?

I'll reserve judgement and keep asking clarifying questions.

 

[Lon]

Just read it as it is said... who gave us the right to add to the words and claim they are right.

The angel told Daniel when things will happen, and when you do the math, everything adds up, Jesus died on schedule. Look into it, listen to what is said.

Check this out too, the book of Daniel is defiantly pointing to this Generation:

Daniel 11 as history

And that is how most scholars see this as well, but once you get to verse 36, it has become difficult to follow the storyline. John Gill attributes this with 2Th_2:4, then Rev_13:5, and Rev_11:2, respectively on all of verse 36.

All I am saying is that the preterist believes these all were accomplished as to the timeline. Those that follow Hal Linsey or Tim Lahaye line these events up with the millenial.

Where is OV on these and how do they see this last stage? As literal or epoch?

 

[Benjamin]

Both debaters are wrong. The generation that see's the rebirth of Israel will not pass (the part you "..." of Matthew 24:34)

 

[patman]

Okay, I read it and didn't just think of refutation.

So here is the deal, first I'll ask clarifying questions and then you can tell me what you think or believe.

First of all, how clear do you see this? What specifically happened with the promise?

We must either see it was fulfilled in a way we do not understand or we must believe that God made a mistake. Is there another option?

I'll reserve judgement and keep asking clarifying questions.

When I show this to SVer's they always pretend it away or say something like God changed the outcome... but yet God still knows all the future, and they don't realize that his changing the outcome would have been known by him anyway, so .... it is a HUGE circular reasoning.

God said what he would do, I don't think we can change that, or change what he meant.. If he changes his mind about performing a future event, and if he never lies, the future must be open.

 

[patman]

And that is how most scholars see this as well, but once you get to verse 36, it has become difficult to follow the storyline. John Gill attributes this with 2Th_2:4, then Rev_13:5, and Rev_11:2, respectively on all of verse 36.

All I am saying is that the preterist believes these all were accomplished as to the timeline. Those that follow Hal Linsey or Tim Lahaye line these events up with the millenial.

Where is OV on these and how do they see this last stage? As literal or epoch?

I referenced many scholars when researching this. They inspired me and helped me understand. I think many agree, especially about the antichrist part happening in the future, as my site says, but they do not see the reason why.

If you look at the links I have to in the historical side, it takes you to wikipedia and other places that you can read the entire historical events for yourself, and then compare that with what happened in Daniel. It goes event for event pretty much for 200 years.

I put those links there in hopes that someone who was skeptical would see this isn't just made up stuff. The events in Daniel 11, say for the last king, have been fulfilled. The last king has been delayed because Jesus and God chose to put that off for another time at the last minute because Israel denied Jesus.