Bi-vocational ascetic monk

thatlldopig

New member
Hi. When I am not working, doing family stuff, or studying too hard, I don't do anything.

I have goats that carry my gear when hiking.

My particular interest is in reproducing the exegesis of the NT authors.
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
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I was helping with setup of a church function and we are placing tables outside. Babe was at the height of it's popularity and one young fan figured everyone had seen the movie. He carried a table with a rather full figured woman and when they set it down in the right spot, he said off-handedly, not directly at her, "That'll do pig. That'll do."

She didn't know it wasn't directed at her, and she didn't know anything about the movie... ohhhh, if looks could kill.

Welcome to the best Theology sight on the internet.
 

PureX

Well-known member
I have no goats.

I don't know what reproducing the exegesis of NT authors means. Were they interpreting themselves, somehow?

I, too, do nothing when I'm not doing those other things. I think it's a guy thing.
 

thatlldopig

New member
One of the goats is named Pig. It confuses the grandkids.

If you google 'sensus plenior' and 'Thomas' you'll find a pretty good overview on the subject. Modern theologians think the gospel authors used the OT in strange ways, and they say not only can't we read the OT the way they did, but that we are not permitted to read the OT the way they did. If we can't read it the same way they did, how do we know we can read it at all?

I think a first century hermeneutic explains it, and using the same hermeneutic can expose the prophecies concerning Christ that have been hidden from those who have refused to look.
 
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steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
One of the goats is named Pig. It confuses the grandkids.

If you google 'sensus plenior' and 'Thomas' you'll find a pretty good overview on the subject. Modern theologians think the gospel authors used the OT in strange ways, and they say not only can't we read the OT the way they did, but that we are not permitted to read the OT the way they did. If we can't read it the same way they did, how do we know we can read it at all?

I think a first century hermeneutic explains it, and using the same hermeneutic can expose the prophecies concerning Christ that have been hidden from those who have refused to look.

:thumb: Maybe.
 

JosephR

New member
One of the goats is named Pig. It confuses the grandkids.

If you google 'sensus plenior' and 'Thomas' you'll find a pretty good overview on the subject. Modern theologians think the gospel authors used the OT in strange ways, and they say not only can't we read the OT the way they did, but that we are not permitted to read the OT the way they did. If we can't read it the same way they did, how do we know we can read it at all?

I think a first century hermeneutic explains it, and using the same hermeneutic can expose the prophecies concerning Christ that have been hidden from those who have refused to look.


Its allways a good idea to look deeper and research on your own and challenge your self and beliefs.

Welcome and I hope to learn from you and exchange ideas soon.
 

PureX

Well-known member
If you google 'sensus plenior' and 'Thomas' you'll find a pretty good overview on the subject. Modern theologians think the gospel authors used the OT in strange ways, and they say not only can't we read the OT the way they did, but that we are not permitted to read the OT the way they did. If we can't read it the same way they did, how do we know we can read it at all?

I think a first century hermeneutic explains it, and using the same hermeneutic can expose the prophecies concerning Christ that have been hidden from those who have refused to look.
When I read it, I read it as literature. In other words, I read it the way I'd look at a painting. I use my own experience of life to interpret the stories, and give them meaning. So that in a way, I guess I'm not that concerned about what the writers were thinking. I'm only concerned about what they wrote.

On the other hand, it can be very informative to learn things about the way human beings lived and though so long ago. Because they lived and thought quite differently from us. And knowing about that difference can open my mind up to new and different and interesting ways of understanding the text.

But in the end, I have to say, I ultimately am determining the meaning. And I think that's as it should be.
 

One Eyed Jack

New member
Hi. When I am not working, doing family stuff, or studying too hard, I don't do anything.

I have goats that carry my gear when hiking.

Ah, but will they regenerate from their bones after you eat them? Hmmm?

My particular interest is in reproducing the exegesis of the NT authors.

I like Viking lore, and all kinds of other stuff.

One of the goats is named Pig.

I had a pig named Sir Bacon Omelette, but I just called him Bacopotamus or Fatty-bo-batty. The people next door had a goat, but I have no idea what his name was.
 

thatlldopig

New member
Thanks again for the welcome. I struck out on my own into the forum jungle and haven't been burned at a stake yet. It is obvious that in many threads everybody is writing and nobody is reading ;-)

Some threads could be characterized as two people taking a long walk on the beach and not noticing anyone else while they have their spat.

I am hoping to have some nice conversations where people respectfully share ideas. This may be impossible in a venue like this. But we'll see.

The tendency is that if there is something that one hasn't heard before, to measure it against what you think you know. Some go so far as to condemn it without hearing any evidence for it as though they are the center of TRVTH. I consider those distractions. How can they be the center when I think I am ;-) but seriously.... if I'm going to learn something. I'll have to listen to something I haven't heard before.

Heck some even argue with you when you agree with them. Let me know when I do that ;-)
 

thatlldopig

New member
When I read it, I read it as literature. In other words, I read it the way I'd look at a painting. I use my own experience of life to interpret the stories, and give them meaning. So that in a way, I guess I'm not that concerned about what the writers were thinking. I'm only concerned about what they wrote.

On the other hand, it can be very informative to learn things about the way human beings lived and though so long ago. Because they lived and thought quite differently from us. And knowing about that difference can open my mind up to new and different and interesting ways of understanding the text.

But in the end, I have to say, I ultimately am determining the meaning. And I think that's as it should be.

I am impressed with your openness on this. Many people actually live this way but don't admit it. I actually see your philosophy as the very definition of original sin. I do it too whenever I live instinctively.

When I do what my instincts say to do, I actually make myself equal to God and declare what is good and evil 'for me'.

Trick question: Joe says, "I think I will feed the poor because I think it is a good thing to do." and Sam says, "I think I will feed the poor because God says it is a good thing to do." Which one did a good work?

Joe is actually committing original sin by declaring what is good for him. It is incidental if God agrees with him or not. He has made God to be his peer, or worse. The other does the good work because he acknowledges God as God. Rom 1.18ff

We cannot be intimate with God if we don't acknowledge him for who he is.

Thanks for the welcome. We have that same sin nature in common. ;-)
 

PureX

Well-known member
I am impressed with your openness on this. Many people actually live this way but don't admit it. I actually see your philosophy as the very definition of original sin. I do it too whenever I live instinctively.

When I do what my instincts say to do, I actually make myself equal to God and declare what is good and evil 'for me'.

Trick question: Joe says, "I think I will feed the poor because I think it is a good thing to do." and Sam says, "I think I will feed the poor because God says it is a good thing to do." Which one did a good work?

Joe is actually committing original sin by declaring what is good for him. It is incidental if God agrees with him or not. He has made God to be his peer, or worse. The other does the good work because he acknowledges God as God. Rom 1.18ff

We cannot be intimate with God if we don't acknowledge him for who he is.

Thanks for the welcome. We have that same sin nature in common. ;-)
Interesting.

I read a story many years ago, written by Isaac Singer, about two brothers. One who was a very pious and devout Jew all his life, and the other who was a worldly man, interested in his business and his possessions. But when an unfortunate accident struck down the worldly brother, the pious brother, in a moment of confusion and despair, committed a grave sin with his brother's wife. And as a result, he believed that he had soiled himself before God, and had lost all hope of finding favor in God's eyes. He believed he had surely doomed himself to hell.

He lived in torment over what he had done for a long time. Until finally, at the end of his rope, he decided to go and see a very famous and respected Rabi and confess, and ask for his advice. So that's what he did. He had to travel a long way, but he finally met with the Rabi.

But to his utter dismay, the Rabi responded to his tail of woe by telling the pious man of an ever greater sin of his own. And so the pious man was completely stunned, and confused. Finally, after he regained his wits, he asked the Rabi how he could go on living as this famous and well respected Rabi, as if nothing had happened, knowing that he had so thoroughly besmirched his own soul before God, and knowing that he had destroyed any hope of being with God in heaven? But the Rabi replied that God will do what God will do, and he (the Rabi) couldn't do anything about that. But in the mean time, he liked being a Rabi. He still loved God and he still loved his faith and he still loved helping people, even if God had completely written him off and he was going strait to hell. So that's what he was going to do until it was time for God to dispatch with him.

The pious man then went back home to his village and resumed his life of prayer, meditation, and study of scripture. Just as he had done all the previous years of his life.

I think you're completely wrong in your assessment of individual human motivation being displeasing to God. I think God would much rather see us do good deeds because WE WANT TO, than because we fear His divine retribution, or because we have been ordered to by our religious beliefs and doctrines.

I believe the Bible is very much like a work of art. Made by men, for men. So that's how I read it. Whether I'm right, or I'm wrong, God will do what God will do, regardless. But in any case, I will have done what was in my true nature to do, and what I believed to be right, as best I could. And NOT just because I was told to do it, by others, who were presuming that their religion was a true representation of God, and is speaking for God. And not just so I could be rewarded for it in heaven.
 

thatlldopig

New member
I think you're completely wrong in your assessment of individual human motivation being displeasing to God. I think God would much rather see us do good deeds because WE WANT TO, than because we fear His divine retribution, or because we have been ordered to by our religious beliefs and doctrines.
I like the story even though it doesn't reflect how I understand a relationship with God. Neither of the characters had any hope of reconciliation with God in the story because neither of them were intimate to begin with. God doesn't punish us because we sin, but because we are sinners.

I think your assessment is correct except in one point. Original sin has nothing to do with motivation. Original sin is not doing something wrong, but in holding God in low esteem.

Israel wasn't condemned for doing wrong stuff. But for doing stuff they thought was right, that they wanted to do. They ignored God's will, and by doing so made themselves to be his peer.

Jud 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Jud 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Over in this thread show me... the first lines retell Gen 1 from the perspective of sensus plenior.

God dwelt in darkness/love which could be expressed because of his triune nature. There was no expression of light/holiness because there was nothing to express separation from. As soon as he created, there was something that was separate.

By his nature before creation he was light/holy, but it was not expressible. It was hidden in his name. Elohim has a pun Alo Khoom, meaning 'not dark' or Light. So as soon as there was a creation, it was in darkness/love so that it wouldn't be destroyed. But his first revelation of himself to his creation was that he was Holy (separate, different).

His next 'task' was to reveal himself as holy, so he said, "Let there be Light". Creation is receiving love already, but doesn't know God as Holy. As John says, we are in the darkness and love the darkness and hate the Light.

Intimacy with God is not possible if we treat him as a peer. It is that way with any authority. If the private doesn't recognize the general's authority there can be nothing but trouble. But when he does, a private may become a great personal friend to a general. In parenting, if children have no respect for the authority of parents there is great chaos. But when there is respect, there can be great intimacy.

It is God's desire to dwell with men, therefore men must learn to acknowledge God as God. Only then can we have intimacy.

But you are correct. Once we are in a proper relationship, he would prefer that we do stuff out of love, rather than fear or obligation. But even fear and obligation are better than not acknowledging him to start with.

Original sin violates the Holiness of God. It says that I am equal to God and can make my own choices. Original sin says "me first" even when it serves others, because I have chosen what is good and that I should do what I want to do. Love says God first and then others because of God. It puts the self in third position.

If I choose because I want to, I am still in first position, and cannot have intimacy with God. Now here's the bigger problem. We don't even want intimacy with God.

We don't call people crazy for praying to God, but for hearing his response. We mock the very intimacy that God desires for us, because the carnal mind is enmity with God.

Oh... and God doesn't NEED us to do stuff. He is capable of doing stuff all on his own. This is why the work itself can mean nothing to God, and the relationship is of pre-eminent importance to him.

So to the characters in the story I would say that their sin was the result of their fallen nature, but their determination that there was nothing that they could do about what God would do was an exercise in the same original sin. They created their own God rather than draw near to the God of their fathers.

David was an adulterer AND a murderer, yet he was reconciled to God. Why a Rabbi would decide that reconciliation was out of his reach can only be attributed to the very same original sin that tells him that he knows better than God.

I suspect that even the greatest of Christians stumbles on this from time to time. Paul cried out, "Who will save me from the body of sin and death" because we all get dragged back into instinctive living. We may have the greatest faith in Christ, and yet one may tithe out of obligation, and another doesn't steal because of fear.

But the greatest gift is when we recognize that we have done something out of love that we could not have done in our own strength. These graces confirm our faith.

It is a grace of love that doesn't even take offense when someone sins against us, because we recognize that all sin is against God, and that taking offense makes us equal to him and treats him as a peer. It is a grace that absorbs sin, because if I do not take offense, then there is nothing to forgive. If I give you my stereo you cannot steal it. Your heart condition is between you and God and not for me to judge.

But you are right. Who wants a relationship where you are in constant fear and obligation?
I believe the Bible is very much like a work of art. Made by men, for men. So that's how I read it. Whether I'm right, or I'm wrong, God will do what God will do, regardless. But in any case, I will have done what was in my true nature to do, and what I believed to be right, as best I could. And NOT just because I was told to do it, by others, who were presuming that their religion was a true representation of God, and is speaking for God. And not just so I could be rewarded for it in heaven.

I think you make the same error as the characters. You make your own God and determine what he will and won't do. You present a false dilemma. These are not the only two choices. The third choice is to become intimate with God. Yep, become a crazy person and learn to actually hear him.

I am not talking about some warm and fuzzy feeling. I am talking about a way that you can not only hear him, but it can be validated that you have heard him. It is not some subjective mumbo jumbo. You can hear him the same way the apostles did.

I will probably receive more abuse from Christians for that statement than I will from non-believers.
 

thatlldopig

New member
They are socialized with people, and one is bonded to me. So as I hike they just tag along and I don't have to worry about them wandering too far off at night. When you start to hike they are excited and tend to jostle for position a bit. But settle into a line. They cue off the humans. If you bunch up, they bunch up with you. If you spread out, they relax and spread out a bit too.

They prefer the senior goat to be at the back of the herd. When hiking alone they like to be ahead of me. We get more of a slinky effect because they don't know where we're going. It's a much smoother operation to have another person lead.
 
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