ECT Believer's call to repentance

[nikolai_42]

Please explain why or why not you think a believer (not an unbeliever) requires a pastor, teacher, fellow believer etc... to be given a call for repentance. In other words, could a believer live a life of repentance without someone else (besides the Holy Spirit without a human intermediary) bringing a word of conviction (whether intentionally or unintentionally)?

 

[Lon]

"Repentance" is going to be a sticking point simply because MAD and a few others, believe Repentance is a one-time deal.

If one understands "Repentance" as "Turned around," then they and even I believe you are headed down the narrow road from then on 2 Corinthians 5:17.

What I 'think' you are after is spiritual walk and encouragement. Romans 12:5 1 Corinthians 12:12

Are you perchance meaning something along the line of 1 Thessalonians 5:11 and Hebrews 3:13?

Many of our Spiritual fruits have a need for interaction. I can love others in my mind, for example, but it is really hard to do, when we aren't hanging around one another. I'd go back to Romans 12:5 and Hebrews 10:25 1 Peter 1:22

 

[nikolai_42]

"Repentance" is going to be a sticking point simply because MAD and a few others, believe Repentance is a one-time deal.

If one understands "Repentance" as "Turned around," then they and even I believe you are headed down the narrow road from then on 2 Corinthians 5:17.

What I 'think' you are after is spiritual walk and encouragement. Romans 12:5 1 Corinthians 12:12

Are you perchance meaning something along the line of 1 Thessalonians 5:11 and Hebrews 3:13?

Many of our Spiritual fruits have a need for interaction. I can love others in my mind, for example, but it is really hard to do, when we aren't hanging around one another. I'd go back to Romans 12:5 and Hebrews 10:25 1 Peter 1:22

I'm thinking a little more than just encouragement and walk - but then I consider repentance to be a part of that walk. And if that term is a sticking point (as it will be for others besides just MADists), I suppose the question could be asked a little more colloquially like this (for example) :

Does everyone believer need a Nathan in their lives to say (directly or indirectly) "You're the man!" or will a true believer stay on course regardless of whether they have such checks on them?

I'm not questioning so much the nature of repentance itself (viewed more in terms of Sovereign gift or personal burden) than I am if the impetus should come through someone else or simply by impulse of the Holy Spirit (isolated from someone preaching or exhorting in some manner). I would count someone who relies on only reading the scriptures to be in the "No" category because there is no force of word that is utterly separate from a man's own thoughts. The Holy Spirit does convict personally, I believe, but there is a difference between the internal "check" and the external "call". And again, there need be no direct application made for what I'm asking. One could merely be listening to a minister and come under conviction without any knowing it - but I would still say that this is a variation of the aforementioned Nathan because the impulse came entirely from outside of one's self. This isn't a question about being under authority - I am assuming all that answer (either way) would say they are under authority that is not their own.

And part of the reason I emphasize repentance (or a related idea) here is that it is a stronger idea than encouragement and growth. That doesn't require a change of direction, thought or action - at least not in the same sense repentance does. And repentance is a part of humility. Can one truly be humbled if they are only following their own understanding of scripture (even if it truly is absolutely correct and inspired) and/or existing without fellowship in which there are "checks" on one's spiritual condition?

Does that clarify or muddy the waters more?

 

[Lon]

Does that clarify or muddy the waters more?

Luke 19:40 For me. God will use whatever means He wills to do His own work Ephesians 2:10 Philippians 2:13 Because I believe in the complete Sovereignty of God, for me, it is a false dichotomy: God will use whatever is at His disposal and always by the Holy Spirit, to accomplish His work in us and work He has planned to use us for. Along the way is human interaction (the second command) because our nature is being changed into His nature and so what He loves, we will increasingly love.

A bit of a side note: I had an epiphany last night: Matthew 25:31-46 I was watching yet another bum on the side of the road and thinking disdainfully: "You don't deserve it, don't need it, and will drink it away." As I drove away, I was also thinking of those who give them beer money. One of them told me: "Hey, he is sitting out there all day, a cold beer on a hot day? I don't begrudge him that." I went back to: "I was in at least some kind of need, and you ignored me." That is when it hit me: It is love. Just love. "MY" need is simply to love. It doesn't mean I have to buy the guy a beer, but there is no harm in just caring for the guy one way or the other. I was wrong. My 'repentance' was simply to become a lover, regardless. Luke 6:27-36 My epiphany: "Just love. Don't try and parse that out. Love all. The gates of hell will no prevail. 'Just Do It.'"

So, rather than focusing on 'repentance' it seems rather we 'encourage' and help one another in our growth, walk, and love, insomuch as God uses us Himself, in each other's lives. I'm not sure if this meets the OP need, I hope it does in some small or direct way. In Him -Lon

 

[Truster]

Repentance is a spiritual endowment. It is one of the gifts that heirs receive under the terms of the “will” of the Eternal Almighty. Repentance and by default the ability to repent is not inherent in man. It cannot be apprehended by learning nor by religious experience. The gift of repentance is received upon regeneration. It is not of the soul and therefore not an emotion, although it does generate reverent sorrow.

Repentance is a spiritual change in which the eyes of the understanding are opened and a vision of the attributes of Deity are clearly perceived for the first time. There is no room for doubt in that first, penetrating beam of spiritual light, and the repentant sinner knows things and can see things clearly for the very first time.

Repentance and trust are spiritual gifts that are permanently entwined, so that one both confirms and strengthens the other. The gift of trust and repentance received at one and the same time, is the most exhilarating experience and a man will always remember where he was and when the eyes of his understanding were first opened. He is suddenly a new man and he knows for an absolute fact he will never be the same again. In the weeks, months and years following there will be more times of repentance. The experience does not diminish and can only be described as extreme blessing. You begin to realise, on each and every occasion, you have been granted repentance that you have changed inside and have a certain knowledge you’ll never be the same again. The inner man is being renewed day, by day. I used to describe the experience like climbing a mountain. The struggle to reach what seems like the top only to discover another top. You reach a plateau of rest and pleasant walking where you enjoy the views, before taking on, or rather, being taken to new heights. Just as climbing is exhausting in the physical sense repentance is spiritually exhausting, because each time a part of the “old self” dies before being replaced with another mentality.

In his natural, fallen state, man has a viewpoint that is clouded by and with sin. In his regenerate state all things are become new and the eyes of the understanding or the mind are part of that renewal. Repentance is “another mentality”. There was an old, natural mentality, that we inherit from Adam and there is the new mentality that we inherit from the Last Adam and our Eternal Saviour.
This lines up with “But we have the mind of Messiah”. 1 Corinthians 2:16 KJV 2 Corinthians 5:17and Romans 12:2
The latter verse confirms that repentance once received is ongoing. Justification is an event that happens once, is complete, cannot be added to and is final, eternal and blessed. Amen. Repentance is the power behind sanctification and we are always being sanctified. Justification is permanent. Sanctification is by degree and therefore repentance, once received, is ongoing.
A man cannot pray for repentance, but a repentant man will pray in spirit. A man does not repent to be re-born again from above. A man repents, because he has been born again from above.
In the first creation Elohim said, “let there be Light and Light became”. In the new creation Elohim says, “Let there be Light and the man is inwardly enlightened” not from power within, but from Almighty Power without, enlightening the inner man.

PS Repentance has got nothing to do with turning. That is conversion where the passive sinner is turned 180 degrees. Not only turned but moved in the opposite direct to the one he was headed.

 

[Tambora]

"Repentance" is going to be a sticking point simply because MAD and a few others, believe Repentance is a one-time deal.

True as far as accepting salvation based on the works of Christ, it's one time.
But one can repent of many other things, both good and bad.

 

[Lon]

PS Repentance has got nothing to do with turning. That is conversion where the passive sinner is turned 180 degrees. Not only turned but moved in the opposite direct to the one he was headed.

lain: As usual, you prognosticate from ignorance and arrogance. One day, you WILL walk as Christ desires. I don't see you lost, just an arrogant babe in Christ. You have a LOT of growing up to do. Oddly, you think anything against you must-necessarily be against the Lord Jesus Christ :nono: I know the Lord Jesus Christ. You are not Him. In Him? I think you're zealously there. Love for Him and what belongs to Him? You have a ways to go. As you walk in Him, I'm confident you'll come around. Right now you are still full of all kinds of angst and dealing immaturely with past rejections and poor fellowship attempts. I know you Truster, better than you know yourself. Keep walking and growing. -Lon

 

[Truster]

Most people have been saying that repentance means to “turn”. I keep telling them it doesn’t mean to turn. Turning is conversion or rather being turned is conversion.

The meaning of the NT Greek.

From the herb STREPHŌ, ’to turn’, plus the preposition EPI, ‘upon’, ‘on’ comes the Greek compound EPISTREPHŌ, ’to turn on or upon’, in the sense of ‘around’, ‘back’. or ‘return’, ‘turn to someone’. ’Turn on a pivot’, ‘return to a source’, ‘wheel about’, ‘convert’. To turn upon the direction in which one was going, as on a pivot, to face the opposite way.

The meaning of OT Hebrew:
There are two Hebrew words that give the sense, and the root, of conversion in the mind of the Spirit and the word of Yah Veh.

HAPHAK; ’Turn’, ‘overturn’, ’turn about’, ‘change’, ’transform’, ‘change into’, ‘reverse’, ‘be upturned’.

SHUB; ‘ Turn back’, ‘return’, ‘go back’, especially ‘return unto’, ‘come back’.

In Haphak the emphasis is on the revolution of the turn; with SHUB, it is upon the ultimate, returning, direction of the turn. Both words are fulfilled in the new testament conception of conversion. It is a radical revolution; and It is a reverse direction, so as to progress in a line directly opposite to the previous course.

New Testament conversion therefore involves three things.:
It involves a radical revolution or turn.
It involves making progress, taking a course, actually proceeding in the new direction faced as a result of turning.
It involves both turning and proceeding being done immediately. It is abrupt, sudden. The thing is done, and done thoroughly, radically and instantly.

Nobody has or can convert themselves. In conversion man is passive. The first he knows about it is when it has been done in him and to him.

Unless experienced this can never be understood.

 

[Truster]

Please explain why or why not you think a believer (not an unbeliever) requires a pastor, teacher, fellow believer etc... to be given a call for repentance. In other words, could a believer live a life of repentance without someone else (besides the Holy Spirit without a human intermediary) bringing a word of conviction (whether intentionally or unintentionally)?

You give Jude 1:19 as an example in the poll. Jude 1:19 has no reference to repentance.

 

[nikolai_42]

You give Jude 1:19 as an example in the poll. Jude 1:19 has no reference to repentance.

I see that now. The original poll I tried to post was a little bit different in flavor (but the same in essential thrust). One of the options essentially saw the believer's existence as being separate from others - and so the tendency to separate from others becomes their main focus. That's generally the way I've always read Jude 1:19 - but realizing that those separations imply divisions also. The one whose life is characterized by faction is often the one at the center of division between brethren.

But you are right - that is not correct as is. I need to see if I can change that after the fact (guessing not)...

 

[nikolai_42]

PS Repentance has got nothing to do with turning. That is conversion where the passive sinner is turned 180 degrees. Not only turned but moved in the opposite direct to the one he was headed.

I found myself agreeing with much of what you said, but believe that repentance does have to do with turning. Sanctification - among other things - means turning from things for which we had no conviction (against, that is). In fact, turning seems to be equated with repentance by the prophet :

Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.
I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.
Jeremiah 8:5-6

Certainly, it takes a new mind to have that thought, but it seems clear that repentance is here equated with turning (back to the Almighty).

 

[Lon]

I found myself agreeing with much of what you said, but believe that repentance does have to do with turning. Sanctification - among other things - means turning from things for which we had no conviction (against, that is). In fact, turning seems to be equated with repentance by the prophet :

Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.
I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.
Jeremiah 8:5-6

Certainly, it takes a new mind to have that thought, but it seems clear that repentance is here equated with turning (back to the Almighty).

To me? Seems both of you agree it means "to turn." The impetuous of that turning doesn't negate the process, I don't believe. In other words, if we are turned, or turn ourselves, it is the same word. Because God is Sovereign, so is whatever He uses to accomplish this work. Perhaps further: "How is repentance effected?" Perhaps 'what does it mean?' could play into that as well. -Lon

 

[Truster]

I found myself agreeing with much of what you said, but believe that repentance does have to do with turning. Sanctification - among other things - means turning from things for which we had no conviction (against, that is). In fact, turning seems to be equated with repentance by the prophet :

Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.
I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.
Jeremiah 8:5-6

Certainly, it takes a new mind to have that thought, but it seems clear that repentance is here equated with turning (back to the Almighty).

Repentance has to do with spiritual eyesight. It is seeing(understanding) Elohim for the first time. It is seeing sin for the first time and having a different attitude towards both. Are you not familiar with exegeses and how words actually have meanings that are different from other words. Convert meaning to turn and I have posted the reason why the Hebrew and the Greek say so.

 

[Truster]

I see that now. The original poll I tried to post was a little bit different in flavor (but the same in essential thrust). One of the options essentially saw the believer's existence as being separate from others - and so the tendency to separate from others becomes their main focus. That's generally the way I've always read Jude 1:19 - but realizing that those separations imply divisions also. The one whose life is characterized by faction is often the one at the center of division between brethren.

But you are right - that is not correct as is. I need to see if I can change that after the fact (guessing not)...

The single most important proof and result of being born above is that it is radical , happens in an instant and is unmistakeable because the fact that salvation has been applied is blatantly obvious to the recipient. Being born above is not a case of evolving it is an act of re-creation. An absolute, power filled and certain act.

 

[God's Truth]

Please explain why or why not you think a believer (not an unbeliever) requires a pastor, teacher, fellow believer etc... to be given a call for repentance. In other words, could a believer live a life of repentance without someone else (besides the Holy Spirit without a human intermediary) bringing a word of conviction (whether intentionally or unintentionally)?

A person must hear the Word of God. That can happen as a child being taught by a parent and then later those words being the bases of the adult child searching for God further. It can be through an adult hearing something about Jesus and then reading the Bible for themselves. It could happen to someone who never heard about Jesus but found a Bible and read it.
Before I was saved, I heard things from others that helped in my ultimately being saved, even though they themselves might have had false beliefs and sin in their own lives; if they spoke something true from the written Word, then it helped me get closer to my salvation; which was all initiated by my deep desire from the beginning to know Him and be saved.
If stranded on a deserted island with nothing more than a Bible could I have found God and been saved? I could have. God helps those where they are in life to find Him, if they so desire to find Him. A believing and obedient heart is needed.
I don't know if that is what you meant, but it is what your question made me think of.

 

[ZacharyB]

Please explain why or why not you think a believer (not an unbeliever)
requires a pastor, teacher, fellow believer etc... to be given a call for repentance.

You have this backwards, right?

The NT does NOT say anything about any call to repentance by another believer.
But yes, the precious Holy Spirit does call us to continual repentance.
As does the precious NT itself.
I.E. only our past sins are forgiven at the time when the precious Holy Spirit enters us!

 

[nikolai_42]

You have this backwards, right?

The NT does NOT say anything about any call to repentance by another believer.

I disagree.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:11-16

I could have copied and pasted most of the chapter, but this is the core of the passage. And if the above doesn't include repentance, then there is never a need for change. And the thrust of the passage is clear that the church is given for the purpose of maturing and helping to sanctify (thoroughly) believers. What follows the above snippet is a whole host of do's and don't's for the body of Christ. So it governs interpersonal interaction. And if part of that interaction is the perfection of the saints, then it will necessarily involve turning from things which may be in our blind spots.

And how does the chapter end?

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Ephesians 4:32

Which brings to mind the Savior's injunction :

Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
Luke 17:3-4

(Never mind just seven times, how about 490 times?)

But again, if we are needing to repent, it will often be brought to light (directly or inadvertently) by and through those in the church with whom we have fellowship.

But yes, the precious Holy Spirit does call us to continual repentance.
As does the precious NT itself.
I.E. only our past sins are forgiven at the time when the precious Holy Spirit enters us!

 

[Truster]

You have this backwards, right?

The NT does NOT say anything about any call to repentance by another believer.
But yes, the precious Holy Spirit does call us to continual repentance.
As does the precious NT itself.
I.E. only our past sins are forgiven at the time when the precious Holy Spirit enters us!

When Messiah paid the price for the sin of His people He paid the price for all their sin. Past, present and future.

"Blessed is the man to whom Yah Veh will not impute sin."

 

[God's Truth]

When Messiah paid the price for the sin of His people He paid the price for all their sin. Past, present and future.

"Blessed is the man to whom Yah Veh will not impute sin."

Jesus paid the penalty for all sins. You repent of the sins you do and have done---just to get saved. If you sin after you are saved, you repent of those sins too.

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

[Truster]

But again, if we are needing to repent, it will often be brought to light (directly or inadvertently) by and through those in the church with whom we have fellowship.

How many times has this actually happened to you directly?

How many time have you pointed out to others their sin directly?

I'd say zero...but I'm open to correction.